Today we get to speak with Raoul Pal who is the founder of Real Vision. Raoul is a former hedge fund manager turned entrepreneur. After managing a global macro hedge fund called GLG Partners for number of years, Raoul didn’t like the way the hedge fund industry was going. So at the age of 36, he retired to the coast of Spain where he started independent financial research. But by being a macro trader at heart, Raoul always looked at things from the big-picture perspective, and he quickly realized that mainstream financial media was not providing the real value that it should be to its viewers. It was then that Raoul decided to take matters into his own hands and launched Real Vision, which is an entire suite of video, audio, and newsletter resources all available for free and on-demand. And he is essentially going up against all the largest media companies in the world.

Real Vision is a very high-quality production, and through his network, they were able to land interviews with some of the top investors, hedge fund managers in the world, many of which would never do public interviews. Let’s get on to the show.

Jay: Hi, Raoul. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the Jay Kim Show. Happy to have you here.

Raoul: Thanks very much.

Jay: You have a pretty unique background, and this is a podcast where we cover both entrepreneurs and investors, and you happen to be both. So maybe you give our audience a little bit of background and introduction and what got you into investing and then what led you further down the path to entrepreneurship.

Raoul: Yeah, it’s quite a long story. I’ve been in the financial markets now for 27 years. I started my career after university teaching traders about technical analysis working for a company called Dow Jones Telerate. So that was my first job. But I managed to talk my way into a job with an investment bank, a British investment bank where I started my career, basically in the derivatives markets.

But over time, I kind of evolved and realized that the biggest growth area and the biggest focus for me was hedge funds. Particularly I found that I was driven towards the macro hedge fund investment world. But that’s kind of how my brain worked — that big picture, multifaceted puzzle.

After moving a few banks, I ended up running the hedge fund sales business in equities and equity derivatives at Goldman Sachs and then hopped along to the dark side and started a global macro hedge fund for one of the largest hedge fund firms in the world at the time, GLG Partners. So I launched and managed the global macro fund for a while and then decided to opt out of the rat race and move to Spain and started writing macroeconomic investment and research for the world’s biggest hedge funds, sovereign wealth funds, government organizations, high-net-worth family offices.

I did that for about 10 years living in Spain. And then, for some reason, I had a crazy idea that the media industry could be disrupted and that investors and the average man, really, had been let down over 2008, 2009 by the media and the banks.

People came to me and said, “Why didn’t we know what was going on?” And I’d been writing about it. I was at the center of the financial system. I knew exactly what was going on, as did most of the people around me. But once you moved away from the financial system, nobody really knew. I thought that that was really wrong, and something should be done about that. So that kind of stuck in my mind for a while.

And then I started observing the changes in the media industry — YouTube launchings, the big one, where suddenly… Wow. Nobody needs a TV license anymore. Television is not what we think it’s going to be. It be anything different across multi-platforms.

So stupidly, without knowing anything about media, four of us got together — four founders — and launched Real Vision, which is the world’s first, on-demand TV channel for finance. And that was three years ago, and it’s grown enormously since. So it’s been one helluva journey so far.

Jay: It’s incredible that it’s only been three years ago because I feel like I’ve heard of Real Vision for, it seems like, years and years and years now. But that just means that you guys must be doing a good job marketing.

So I wanted to take a little bit of a step back. You have a pretty interesting background and history. Coming out from the larger institution, I know that I spent a career on the Southside. I’m working at a small hedge fund now myself. So I’m acutely aware of your career path and some of the things that you probably experienced along the way. But I know that for a lot of people, it takes a catalyst. So for me, it was 2008 and that financial crisis that made me realize, “Okay, maybe I don’t want to be on the Southside anymore. Maybe I want to explore something else.”

But it sounds like you preemptively just got fed up with it. Or what exactly was it that made you want to just kind of pack it up and go sit on a beach?

Raoul: So there were two big shifts that happened in my career. Again, I just think of everything in macro terms. I was at Goldman Sachs in ’99, 2000, and the period prior to that. I just saw the huge explosion and over-financialization of the US economy and the global economy. And I just thought it was going to be unsustainable. So that made me want to switch towards the opportunity set that was offered on the buy side by starting a hedge fund because I thought we were due a recession, which came, gave me a tremendous trading opportunity.

However, after about three or four years of running a global macro hedge fund, I realized that that industry was on its way out too. And that was basically because the pensions industry had moved in and were now the main giver of assets to the hedge fund industry. And those guys didn’t want the returns that hedge funds used to produce. They didn’t want 15% volatility and 40% year being an amazing year. What they wanted was something like a bond. And what they also wanted was a monthly NAV. What that was is, I think, is the antithesis of what macro investing and good hedge fund investing is all about.

So it forced people all in the same time horizon. It lowered returns massively across the industry, and I thought, this industry is never going to be the same industry again. And so that’s why I decided to opt out of the rat race and move to Spain, because I realized that things were changing, and the very first global macro investor publication that I wrote was called the Death of G7 Macro. And that theme has continued to play out as the hedge fund industry has come under more and more pressure for returns because they just can’t generate the returns with the kind of investors that they have and the kind of markets we’re seeing now too.

Jay: That’s quite interesting. So when you went and you kind of took your hiatus and you were sitting in Spain and you started Global Macro Investor, that was and still is quite an institutionally-geared product. Is that correct?

Raoul: Yes. And for me, again everything is a macro view with me. So why did I start Global Macro Investor? Simply because there was a hedge fund bubble. The returns of the hedge fund business were falling, therefore, don’t be in a hedge fund, sell shovels to hedge funds. So the business was sell all of the acquired experience over my 20 years in the industry via the Global Macro Investor to the industry. Again, I was very lucky. It was a great decision.

Jay: I wonder, is there something that you can perhaps pinpoint from your childhood or your upbringing or maybe just an interest that you had that led you to always be taking this macro view. It seems like even in your career, in your life, you always see things on more of a bigger picture than most of us. Is there something that you can pinpoint that to?

Raoul: That’s a good question. I have no idea. My background is a very mixed background, half Indian, half Dutch, and kind of spread across continents, which has always given me a slightly broader view. I moved country a few times when I was young.

But I think it was really… I think it’s because I’m a very visual person. So I walked into financial markets and somebody showed me the power of charts, technical analysis. And I realized that I could see every market in the world in a chart. And there was some textual information within that chart that tells you what’s going on. So suddenly, you could pretty much tell what was going on in any market in the world in a second. So that resonated with me.

And then I was lucky. I got introduced, particularly when I… I was running the team at James Capel, which was a UK stock brokerage firm, part of HSBC at the time. And I moved the team across the NatWest, one of the UK banks. And as we were moved the team, we had a three-month period where we couldn’t work. Suddenly they hired 120 people from Morgan Stanley, and they turned a UK investment bank into a US investment bank. And that’s when the US investment banks were kind of taking over the world.

I remember I walked into the office the first day, and the guy who is now running the business said, “Raoul, you were kind of doing international equity derivatives. We’re kind of changing how things are going. What would you like to do?”

I said…”I love hedge funds.” I said, “That’s how I think. That’s what I do.”

He said, “Fine. Who do you want to know?”

I gave him a list cheekily and said, “Paul Tudor Jones, Stan Druckenmiller—”

Jay: The legends.

Raoul: The legends. He said, “Fine. I know them all. Come over to New York next week, and I’ll introduce you.” So my first meeting was with Paul Tudor Jones, and that was my career. Suddenly I realized that I spoke the same language, saw the world in the same way. I started with a chart. I always saw the big picture. It was all about the knock-on effect for me — not about what’s happening right here, right now, but the probabilistic outcomes in the future and where the world is going.

So I don’t know. It just really suited me.

Jay: That’s so interesting. And I feel like the macro hedge fund… To the audience, sorry. We’re getting a little bit finance-y here. We’ll switch gears shortly, but I feel like, Raoul, I feel like you just rattled off three of the legendary macro traders of all time. And I feel like it’s almost a dying breed. There are still a handful out there. Obviously, those guys are somewhat still involved. But as far as the younger people that come up, I feel like it’s one of these things where you have to go into these funds and actually get apprenticed and actually learn how to be a global macro trader or investor. And a lot of places, you just can’t learn that craft anymore.

Raoul: No, it’s very difficult, and I get young kids all the time emailing me saying, “How do I get into the business?”

I said, “You can’t because the industry is shrinking.” Even legendary guys who are slightly newer — well not  that new. But people like Alan Howard, basically, his fund is a bond. People don’t look for those returns. That whole macro world is not there anymore. There’s very few people — people like Mark Hart at Corriente, Kyle Bass — those guys are still pure macro guys, but there’s relatively few of them anymore.

Jay: Absolutely. And not for nothing. I think it’s a much more complicated skill to basically look at everything, everything asset class and see the big picture as opposed to just focusing on equity, long, short, or one specific asset class.

So let’s move on a little bit here. Global Macro Investor — you were writing this institutional grade research and then somewhere along the way… First of all, at that time, there actually also wasn’t a lot of independent institutional-grade research. It was all basically you pay the brokers and the banks and you’re paying for the research then. Now it’s much more commoditized, and there are a handful of independent researchers out there. At what point did you then decide “this is not the end all, be all” and saw this potential to disrupt a massive opportunity?

Raoul: I was in Spain, and in my small village in Spain, there was another English guy, and he worked for the publishing industry, and over a few glasses of wine in the evening, we’d talk about some of the changes that were happening in the publishing business, how it was being disrupted as things came online — ebooks. And what became clear is the publishing business didn’t know what to do. They were paralyzed by this new world. And then there was a merge between video, written word — everything — online. And the publishing business was, as I said, paralyzed.

Meanwhile, a friend of mine was running one of the television companies in the UK. And I remember, again, in Spain over a glass of wine, him saying, “We don’t know what to do because suddenly we’re paying like 100 million pounds for a TV license, and nobody needs a TV license. We don’t even know how to change our business model.”

There was my macro alarm bell going off. It’s like, wow. The entire media business from written publications to television is completely up for grabs, and there’s nothing they can do about it.

So putting that with the fact that financial television was of such poor quality and it underserved people, I just knew there was an opportunity to go and do this right.

Jay: So you mentioned 2008 as… Now they conversation that you had, what year was that in Spain over a couple of glasses of wine?

Raoul: That was probably extended from 2008 and then finally I met Grant Williams who is the other co-founder of Real Vision in 2012. Again, over another glass of wine… He had done some video, and the lightbulb went off. And I said, “Why don’t we start this?” I didn’t know Grant. I’d never met him before. And so the next morning, we all got together and said, “Actually, that’s not a dumb idea. Let’s do it.” That was 2013. We built out the whole platform and launched in 2014.

Jay: So this idea had kind of been planted in your head. Like I said, you mentioned the financial crisis, and you also mentioned very briefly at the beginning that mainstream media played a big role in the fallout after the financial crisis. And not for nothing, I think a lot of…not the institutional investors but the individual investors were probably the ones that got hurt the most. Part of it is the fault of the mainstream media and this sort of thing.

Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how that affected your decision to really try to seek out something that could be disruptive in that entire industry.

Raoul: Yeah. What I realized was the media was busy treating finance as entertainment. The truth of this, having gotten to know quite a lot of people in the industry, is they built financial television around sports presenting. So what they tried to do was make it exciting and racy, but what they didn’t realize is this was people’s life savings. And so if you’re that flippant with people’s life savings, you’re going to create an issue somewhere down the line. That was the thing that I just thought, this is wrong.

I also realized how little truth in finance there is. There is a narrative that is given to the world, and it’s often picked up by investment banks because they don’t want to take you the darker side of what may be going on in the world. But I thought there needs to be more balance. We can’t go and get the other side of the story just from going to Zero Hedge, the kind of famous website where people kind find a lot of these stories. I thought there needs to be more balance and more truth in finance. So it’s all of these things that came together.

Jay: I think each year that goes by, a little bit of the barrier gets broken down. Now it’s because of online and accessibility of information, it’s actually much better, and if you just do a little bit of research on Twitter and follow news a little bit closer — not mainstream media but maybe some sites like yours — then you can kind of get a better picture. But still, there’s this mass amount of the population, especially in the US, that are just following CNBC or Jim Cramer or whatever the state or the system is pounding the table with, they’re at their mercy.

Raoul: Another point being, don’t forget, in the last 15 years, Google changed the world. What happened is the internet and Google basically meant that there was information everywhere. There was an overload of information. Before, let’s go back 20, 25 years. It was hard to get the information. Now there’s too much information. We’re drowning in it. So the key elements of what’s going on now is curation. You need to trust somebody to curate the very best or the most important things. And that’s really what we stand for, is curation, to make sure we focus people’s attention on the things that really matter.

Jay: So you guys got together, and you were like, we’re going to create Real Vision. What’s the tagline, mission statement, if you could say it in one line, so to speak.

Raoul: It was truth in finance. And that really remains it. And also, it’s kind of developed into a subset of that, which is the democratization of financial information. That’s what the whole business is trying to do, to bring world-class financial analysis and the quality of the guests that we speak to and that kind of thing, bring them to the average guy. So they get access to the smartest minds in the entire world.

And those are the two most important things. That’s what drives us every day.

Jay: So there’s another big divide that you just touched upon. Not only is there a gap between institutional and individual investors. On the one hand, you have these large institutions that are paying banks a lot of millions of dollars to access their research and their deals and this sort of thing, flows. And then you have the individual investor that has CNBC, and they have some of the financial publishing newsletters like Stansberry Research and this sort of thing. And that’s pretty much all this have. And they have access to three-minute clips of Warren Buffett on CNBC giving an interview talking about Cola-Cola or these great financial people that usually, at most, will be a minimum and a half on CNBC on the New York Stock Exchange trading floor or something like that. So you can’t really get to know them or really hear what they have to say.

And so I feel like that Real Vision, when I first saw your product, that was amazing to me, to be able to have these really high production video with seemingly unreachable, inaccessible investors, that you were actually able to sit there and have long-form interview with. So I that was one of the most appealing things for me. And the fact that you could just pay a subscription and access that was great.

What other parts of your business model are available for subscribers there?

Raoul: I think that subscription thing is very key because when we started this business, we could have gone down the route of BuzzFeed or Business Insider and said “Okay. Let’s just generate content, then try and get advertising dollars, go down the click bait headlines, go to the short attention span.”

And that was when we sought people’s advice, they said, “This is what you need to do. People will not watch long-form video. Three to five minutes. Perfect. Punchy headlines. Get it out for free.”

Us being contrarians through and through said, “Okay. We’re going to go to long form, hour-long conversations and subscription based.”

The opportunities always lie where everybody else is not doing something. So that was the great opportunity. We also then built out, realizing that television was the great part. We interview the world’s most famous people. We build these thematic stories, telling about the markets events that matter the most, whether it’s what’s going on in India right or what’s on in the dollar or bond markets, whatever that may be. So people get all the information that they need.

So then we thought, okay, let’s look at the publishing industry because people are underserved because there’s a newsletter publishing industry that’s driven by basically one firm, Agora. The quality of the writers can be good, but generally speaking, they don’t have the backgrounds and the experience that people in the institutional side have, like myself. And so we thought, why not bring that quality to everybody? And so that was the next thing we launched, Real Vision Publications. We launched a publishing business. We’ve also launched a podcast called Adventures in Finance to broaden the conversations about finance. We have a free newsletter called 20/20 to make sure people who can’t afford it have it too. We also have another more elite one called Macro Insiders. So we’re rolling out products at an unbelievable rate, expanding rapidly.

Jay: That’s incredible. Let’s me just ask, you guys basically got together and you… I’m talking now from an entrepreneur startup perspective. So you guys had the idea. You came together. You basically bootstrapped it. You guys aren’t taking any VC money. Are you just literally bootstrapping it as you go or…?

Raoul: We first bootstrapped it. We financed it for the first couple of years. Of that, a large chunk of the money that we put in was building a video player platform around a video streaming company and the website, which we ended up abandoning and torching well over a million dollars which was startup lesson number one — you really don’t know what you’re doing most of the time. So that was one of the things that we did as we kind of developed out from there.

Jay: What was the reason that you had to scrap the 1.0 version?

Raoul: Again, we didn’t know what we were doing, so we sought advice. So we went to see this digital development agency, and they said, “Yeah, we can do this for you.” And we planned out this beautiful website, and it looked great. But the problem is they built it not as software, really, but as a website. Now we had hundreds of videos coming on, thousands of people coming on to the platform. Also, it just didn’t deal with the number of browsers out there. So the whole thing fell over.

We went live, and I was in Miami at the time. Remi, the other founder, was in Spain. Damien was in London, and Grant was in Singapore. And we were like, press the button to go live. We’d already had one the a half, two thousand people subscribe before launch, and the whole thing just went nuts as nobody’s browser could allow them to watch the videos. So in the end, we tried to piece it together. We spent more and more and more money trying to fix the mess that we created. And then one of our subscribers wrote to us and said, “Listen, guys. You’re making a mess of this. I know how to do this, and I can do it for you.”

So we said, “Thank you.” A Swedish developer based in Malaysia came and joined us and really helped us change the thing around. Now we have a fantastic platform.

Jay: Is the core of your platform financial publishing? That’s the backbone, would you say? And then building different layers on top of that?

Raoul: It’s basically really video or television is really where the core of our business is. But we want to reach as many people with that mission of democratizing financial information in as many ways as we can. Hence why we have a podcast, because we want to make some stuff free. The newsletter 20/20. We want to make sure that people get good, quality information. If not, we’re not doing our mission. But we also want to make sure we give people access to some of the best possible things out there. So Real Vision publications is basically a compendium of 30 of the world’s best newsletter writers and research providers. And we give them access to some of that research, timely, and then we build a digest to distill that all down to what’s going on in markets right now and how you can use all of these incredible writers and researches and to build an investment theme and understand what’s going on in the world.

It’s a multi-faceted thing but television is the core of what we do because we think that’s the big opportunity.

Jay: It seems like any company now that is not embracing and transforming themselves into some sort of a media company with — not just talking about social media and this sort of thing, but like you said, you have to have all the different outlets. You have to be on video. You have to be on audio. You have to have your publications. That’s what you have to pay to sit down at the table, so to speak.

Raoul: That’s true. However, the really big opportunity, if you look at what’s going on in the world right now, it’s one of the biggest changes in the history of the media business is that everybody wants to get into video. Video is the new engagement platform of choice for everybody. So there’s a mad panic for video. And all of the platforms have changed because cable is being disbanded. The whole thing is changing. So everybody is becoming a platform provider — be it Amazon, be it Netflix, be it Apple, be it HBO, be it Disney — everybody is involved in building a platform at the mobile phone companies. The problem is nobody is a content provider.

So when we are an original content provider in a platform world, that makes us a very highly attractive proposition for many people, and particularly with the demographic that we have. Because unlike CNBC that appeals to… The average viewer of CNBC is 63 years old. We have students. We have deals with Cambridge University. We have deals with MIT. We have students on. We have tons of Millennials. We have tons of Gen Xs and Baby Boomers. So the average audience skew of ours is young, massively educated, and well-paid. So it’s a very attractive demographic to walk into this platform world.

Jay: Raoul, I think the reason why most people don’t go after it is because they just can’t. You’re going after everything. You’re going after the platform and the content curation, which is incredible. You’re literally going to bat against the big boys, which is awesome to see. I’m definitely cheering you guys on.

What are your thoughts on the future of financial publishing? You mentioned Agora Financial, which they obviously are probably the largest in the world and have almost a stronghold on that industry. And I see some of their gurus and this sort of thing trying to do a little bit more on the media side but not fully embracing it. There is still very much, sort of businesses based off of that email subscribers and selling their newsletters. They’re obviously kind of in the same field as you. Do you think that model is going to eventually have to change whether they like it or not?

Raoul: We know the Agora guys well at various parts of Agora. Listen, they are the best in the world at what they do. And what they do is direct response marketing. It’s basically email-driven marketing, and they’re stunningly good at it. They have some good writers as well. And some of it is not quite the way we would sell things. They’re a little bit aggressive in their sales model. But they’re exceptional at what they do. But we keep getting called in by various people at Agora for a chat because they’re like “What you guys are doing, we understand that this is probably the future of the business.” But they don’t really know how to change because much like incumbents of the past in the television industry, they’ve got this huge machine that churns out cash, but they can see the disruptor, but they don’t know what to do about it because they can’t replicate it.

Jay: Yeah. That’s the challenge. You guys are in a very interesting space. It’s exciting to see your progress and how you guys continue. What are your plans and goals for, say the next 12 to 18 months? Are there big pushes in certain areas that you’re thing to make, certain metrics that you’re trying to hit?

Raoul: Uh, yeah. We have very big plans. We’re ludicrously ambitious. The next thing is we are launching — and I can’t talk too much about all of these yet because they’re not fully launched. But we’re launching a second TV channel which is solely about trade ideas. And it’s for brokerage houses to offer to their customers. It’s probably the world’s first wholesale distribution TV channel which we are launching in about a month’s time. So that is hot off the press. I don’t think anybody knows about that yet.

Jay: Very cool.

Raoul: So that is coming, and we’re distributing that in conjunction with Thomson Reuters who are our partners on some of this. In addition, we’ve got an even bigger project that’s launching in 2018 which is really the kind of flag planting in where we’re going. I’ll just allude to it as the vice of finance.

Jay: Oh, man. We’re all going to have to tune in and subscribe then so we can stay in the loop.

Raoul, as you have gone on this journey, you’ve obviously been in the highest levels of finance and trading. And then now as you’ve transitioned and you’re now building a great company, what are some of the biggest challenges that you’ve faced, not as an investor but more on the entrepreneurial side? In many ways it’s similar, but in many ways it’s vastly different being an entrepreneur and just being an investor where you can kind of just… I feel like that’s something that’s more natural. But then being an entrepreneur, you’re probably faced with a bunch of fire drills all that long that you never really imagined. What are some of the biggest challenges you’ve faced or just maybe some pieces of advice for aspiring entrepreneurs that are listening to our show today?

Raoul: I never really understood when Reid Hoffman talked about a startup being kind of jumping out of a plane and then trying to assemble a parachute on the way down. It is exactly that. It is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It’s incredibly intellectually rewarding. There are so many challenges because what you realize is how little you know. You need to accumulate rapid industry knowledge. You need to accumulate management knowledge. I’m not used to dealing with video editors, Millennial video editors. It’s not the world I’ve come from, but I have to learn, and I have to get good at management skill, and you make all of the mistakes. Just the sheer amount of decision making when you’re accelerating as fast as we are — I think our staff has grown seven fold in 18 months — it becomes incredibly difficult to keep control of the organization.

Then it’s realizing things that didn’t matter really to me in the past but stuff like processes and structure. If you ask my friends, those are not the things that they would talk to me about or assume that I know anything about. But I’ve had to learn about process. Get the process right. Get the structure right. Because without those things, you cannot build a business. It will keep falling over.

We fail endlessly every single day. So another thing you hear from startup entrepreneurs is failure is part of it all. We fail endlessly every single day. But the point being is every time you fail, you have to pick yourself up, figure out why you failed, and then jump over that hurdle and keep going. You can’t see hurdles as brick walls. You have to see everything as a small speed bump. Just keep your eye on the horizon. Keep moving forwards but without leaving a trail of destruction behind you. And so you need to have the right staff and the right infrastructure.

It is really hard to do. But it is one of the most rewarding things I’ve never done.

Jay: That’s incredible. Last question on Real Vision. Big picture goal, if any, if you guys have even thought about it, which I’m sure you have. Are you thinking… Is it more about legacy? This is what you guys want to be remembered for? Is it like you want to list this as an IPO? Do you want to exit this for a huge multiple to a larger company? Any thoughts on that?

Raoul: Look, for first thing, it sounds flippant, but I do want to change the world. We can change the financial narrative. I have an opportunity to do it, and I really want to take that seriously and do that. So that is the first, most important thing. We took external capital for the first time about 18 months ago mainly from friends and family which are many of the world’s most famous hedge fund guys personally investing in us. One of the biggest financial TV incumbents actually offered to buy 25% in our first year, but we had to turn him down. We’re now just about to raise second capital raise now and moving forwards for these much larger plays.

We do understand that it’s a very attractive business for many people in the end. But really, what we’re trying to focus on is doing what our mission is first — to build out all of this great product that we’ve got coming and just to make sure we’re engaging as many people as possible in this new world of OTT platforms developing everywhere and a fragmented television audience that is underserved in this entire area.

Jay: I think one of the benefits of being a somewhat more seasoned entrepreneur is that you’re not like a 22 year old Millennial that would probably blink at the first large exit check that was handed to them. So I think that actually helps. It’s funny because the more you read a hear about entrepreneurs, most of them are older, and they’ve had years of experience in certain industries where they develop expertise and decide to build a company. You only hear about the one-off Mark Zuckerbergs here and there or the SnapChat guys or whatever. But most of the entrepreneurs in the world that I’ve studied and met are very seasoned in a particular field that they have expertise in. So it’s good to have that grand vision, but I think that the longer you can hold on, and you don’t have the pressure of “Oh, I need to have a paycheck” or “I need to pay the bills” but you can actually achieve greater things, the better.

So, Raoul, thanks so much for your time. It was really, really good connecting with you and hearing about the great stuff that you guys are working on there at Real Vision. We certainly wish you the best of luck. Where is the best place for our audience to find you, follow you, connect with you personally and also your company and learn more about what you guys are doing there?

Raoul: The easiest place to find me is on Twitter which is @RaoulGmi. I’m very active on Twitter. So anybody can find me there. If they want to check out Real Vision, RealVision.com. Pretty simple. There’s tons of free stuff. There’s a podcast. There’s all sorts of stuff, so you don’t have to pay for anything to get a look at our world and see what we’re doing. And you’ll see how kind of unique we approach finance world with graffiti and cool music, and you’ll realize how disruptive it is compared to the world that’s out there.

Jay: Totally. I can vouch for your aesthetic and design and quality. Like you said, it’s unlike anything else you’ve seen, definitely not CNBC that you’re going to be looking at. So is the, I guess, 20/20 and the podcast is good too, Adventures in Finance. So I guess those are two good starting points listeners.

Raoul: Yeah, absolutely. Just get a feel for the stuff that’s out there. If you do have an interest in the finance world, the Real Vision the television side is fantastic. If you want some research, publication side is good as well. Just kind of have a look around at some of the stuff that we’ve got. I know you’ll enjoy it.

Jay: Fantastic. Thanks so much, Raoul. I really appreciate your time.

Raoul: Brilliant. Really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

Jay: Alright. Good luck. Take care. Bye.