We have a great episode for you today. Our guest is Jordan Harbinger from The Art of Charm. Jordan himself is a podcast host of one of the top podcasts in the world where he teaches advanced social skills for top performers. Jordan started off his career as a Wall Street lawyer and quickly realized that the people who were bringing in the biggest deals were not the smartest one at the firms. Everyone is pretty much smart at Wall Street, but the ones that had the best relationships. Jordan then spent the next several years researching and studying human psychology and persuasion.

Jordan then spent the next several years researching and studying human psychology and persuasion. And he started testing his methods out as a local bar with his business partner. Due to his success at the bars, it wasn’t long before Jordan attracted a following, many of whom offered to pay Jordan to teach them what he knew. With that, The Art of Charm was born and now it’s one of the leading schools out there that teaches social interaction.

Jordan is also one of the very first podcasters on the scene long before podcasting was a thing. So, I’m particularly excited about today’s episode. Let’s get on to the show.

Jay: Jordan, welcome to the show. We’re very happy to have here, on the Jay Kim show. First of all, congratulations. I know you got married recently. So, congrats on that.

Jordan: Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

Jay: Yeah. I’m excited to speak to you today because, actually, you’re one of the inspirations. I’ve listened to your shows for a while. You were one of the first podcasters on the scene before anyone even knew what podcasting was.

Jordan: Before there was a scene.

Jay: Before there was even a scene. So, very happy and excited to have you on the show. For our audience in Asian, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself. Who is Jordan Harbinger? What do you do for a living?

Jordan: Sure. So, my name is Jordan Harbinger and I am a broadcaster, but I used to be a Wall Street attorney, and before that I was just a regular guy. No. I really wasn’t cut out to be an attorney. And I knew it all along and when I was there I had … So, in America we do this, sort of, summer internship and I started with a law firm. And what they do is they pay you ridiculous amounts of money, like 25 grand for the summer to go and watch plays and hang out and got to fancy restaurants so that you think, “This job is amazing.” And then they put you to work in like a sweat shop, slave labor style, only it’s a Manhattan skyscraper. They do that to you/with you when you join for real after law school.

Well, there’s supposed to be this summer mentorship program and the mentor that I had was never in the office. And these mentors are assigned. They don’t volunteer. It’s not something they want to do, most of them. It’s assigned. And a lot of them really enjoy it because you get to rock the company expense account over the summer going to see Blue Man Group and having $90 lunches or $190 lunches. And my mentor was never there, so one day, HR, who’s basically … Human resources is a hiring department who’s kind of handling this summer associate class, as they call it. It’s like, “How’s everyone’s mentorship program going?” And I, of course, am like, “I don’t have one.” They’re like, “What? Who’s your mentor?” I’m like, “Uh. I think his name’s Dave.” And they’re like, “Oh. Dave. Right. Right. Right.”

And everybody thought like, “Oh. Man. You’re so lucky. Dave’s you mentor. This is amazing.” All the partners were sayings that. All of the senior associates were saying that, but none of the summer associates … The summer associates were laughing at me because I hadn’t … Basically, my mentor had kind of ditched me. So, HR made him take me out for coffee. And he was like, “Ask me anything you want.” And I said, “How come you’re never in the office but you’re a partner? It doesn’t make any sense.” You know? He was really shocked by that. Because obviously you don’t talk to partners that way, generally. I was like, “Look. Let’s be candid here. What the hell are you doing all day? Are you working from home? What’s going on?” And he told me that he brought in all the deals of the law firm, for our department, not for the whole firm. But for our department, which was real estate.

And I just was like, “Wait a second. You bring in deals so you don’t have to show up to work?” And he’s like, “Yeah. My time is more valuable outside the office than it is inside the office because I get million dollar deals every quarter and in order to make a million dollar by billing hours for the firm, even if I bill out at $1000 per hour, that’s a lot of hours.” It’s an inhumane amount of hours. It can’t be done. So, his time per hour, his value of time per hour, even though some of the other lawyers were billing out, $500 to $1000 an hour, his time was multiples of that because he was bringing in deals. And of course, the way that you do that is a lot of golf, a lot of racketball, a lot of squash, a lot of dinner, a lot of Broadway shows, a lot of hanging out in boats.

Jay: [inaudible 00:05:26] baby.

Jordan: Doing the right thing. Yeah. I’m sure that’s an addition to his expense account. And he got bonuses for bringing in the deal, so he didn’t have to worry about hitting a certain billable hour requirement every year. And I felt like, “Wait a minute. This is really good.” Because when I was young, I was a smart kid. So that’s how I got through school, being a nerd and just being a smart kid. When I got to college, everybody was as smart as me, but they were all busy getting wasting. And I was like, “I’m gonna study.” So, I outworked everyone. And that worked in law school, as well. But once you get to Wall Street, everyone’s smart and everyone’s willing to outwork everyone else. So, my competitive advantage evaporated.

And that’s why when Dave told me, “Hey man. I bring in the deals.” I thought, “Holy cow. This is like the secret third elevator to the top that nobody even knows existed.” And if I work on this skill set now, then in five years when they’re like, “Why am I not making partner.” And then someones like, “You gotta bring in deals.” I’ll already have spent five years trying to figure out five years trying figure out how the hell to do that. So, I’ll get my competitive advantage back.

That was my plan for the law game. That’s why I started studying psychology, persuasion, influence and sales, and all the other things, all the other components of the art of charm.

Jay: So, okay. It sounds like this guy was a Harvey Specter, like from Suits. And he was just like the rain maker of the firm. Was he mid 40s, something like that and just killing?

Jordan: I feel like he was in his early to mid 40s and he was cool. I mean, my first impression was that he was cool. And I know that sounds weird and juvenile, but let’s be honest here. I get interviewed at this New York law firm. Everyone’s kind of like, “All right. What do you want to do here?” And this was a job seekers market. We were printing money. This was 2006. High of the financial bologna.

Jay: That’s right.

Jordan: This is real estate in derivative. Basically, they’re looking for, do you have a pulse, can you get to work, more or less, on time, and can you read english. And I’m like, “Yes.” And oh, do you have a law degree from a top school? Yes. All right. Fine.

But Dave was kind of like, “All right. Let’s throw the football around inside my office.” And he was throwing me this football and playing with it. We were playing with it back and forth and talking. And I remember being like, “This guy is super cool and chill.” Where I remember a lot of the other partners being like, “Uh. I know I have to ask you some questions or something. And interview you, but I’m basically too busy and I just want to make sure you’re not a psycho.” But Dave was really putting me at ease.

I guess he was kind of like that, but he wasn’t like this smooth bastard where you think, “Oh. Of course. This guy. Everybody knows this guy.” He was really just a nice, cool guy. And he did jiu-jitsu and he hung out with his wife. And he hung out and golfed and stuff like that. And people were just like, “Oh. This guy’s cool.” And he grew up in Brooklyn, so he’s very at home with all these New Yorkers, and even the transplant New Yorkers. He was one of the guys. And that’s kind of the boys club that was, that is investment banking, real estate.

Jay: Right. Yeah. Okay. Jordan, just so you know, I have a deep background in Wall Street, as well. I working at Lehman. So, the whole drill. It’s actually pretty cool because it sounds very similar to a lot of the things that I experienced. The summer internship, blah, blah. The guys out there that were networking and pulling in the big deals. But you saw this third, sort of, elevator, as you said, to get yourself to the top.

A lot of people think they know how to network and make connections and build lasting relationships, but they’re actually not good at it. So, you said you started studying psychology and the art of persuasion and stuff. Did you just do that independently, like you just dove into reading books and researching on your own?

Jordan: Yeah. That was interesting because, honestly, the way I wanted to do this was very different from what actually happened. First I was like, “Okay. I need to get books on getting deals or something like that.” So I read dumb books, man. I don’t even remember what they were, but they were books written by people who were writing about deals. I’ll just leave that one there. And there were other people who were writing books like, “Persuade anyone to do anything.” And I’d read those and it’d be some dumb, oversimplified, hypnosis handbook. And I thought, “Okay. This stuff doesn’t work.”

And I decided that I wasn’t gonna discard anything because I thought it was stupid. I was gonna try everything. So, I spent years going out every night with AJ, my business partner. He was really good with women. I was not. But he was terrible at networking. So we were working on the networking stuff. And we went out and tried everything. And some of it was just dumb. We embarrassed ourselves a lot, but it didn’t really matter. It was just a trial and error thing. And we were in college. That’s what college is for.

And I started to think like, “Okay. We really do need to take some classes.” So, I thought, “All right. What’s the pinnacle of persuasion and being likable?” Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. So, I read the book, thought it was excellent, but pretty outdated. But that stuff holds up. It’s psychology and human behavior.

So, I took a Dale Carnegie class and to say I was disappointed is kind of not really doing it justice. The teacher was just good, nice guy, but let’s be honest, you’re not learning advanced levels of charisma and personal magnetism from dudes who teach at the learning AnX or the YMCA, who go to work and secretly really wish they weren’t there. Retired substitute teachers and stuff like that. They can teach really good basics. I’m not trying to make fun of the whole thing. They teach really good basics. Look people in the eye, and shake their hand.

And that was good for the time, but I’m gonna be blunt with you because that how I roll and you’re a former Wall Streeter, so you know what I’m saying when I say this. If people aren’t giving you business or doing work with you or collaborating with you have projects, it’s sure as hell is not because you don’t have a firm handshake, dude. It’s not. It’s because they don’t like you or they like someone less more. Not that they dislike you, but they like someone else more. They know, like and trust someone else more. Trust is even more important. And we can get to that in a minute.

It’s true and the reason that you don’t learn this stuff in Dale Carnegie classes or these big, sort of, charisma classes or these 10 person workshops, or 20 person workshops, is because in order to teach people real magnetism, it’s not about adding things on to their personality. It doesn’t matter if they remember, “Hey, Jay. How’s your daughter’s tennis lessons going?” “Wow. Jordan remembers my daughter takes tennis lessons. What a charismatic guy.” Not a real interaction. Right? Not a real thing. So, they teach you that stuff and it’s cool and it’s kind of gimmicky and it’s handy. And if you’re a guy who works in Amazon and you’re coding all day, and you’re kind of are average level of social skills, that stuff can take you a certain distance.

But if you’re competing with people for multimillion dollar deals, who’s job it is to essentially be great salesman, except you’re not a trained salesman. You’re a lawyer. You’re a doctor. You’re a dentist. You’re an entrepreneur. You own your own business, whatever the skill set is. You have to bring way better game than a firm handshake and good eye contact. You have to get people to know, like and trust you more than they like someone else and that’s really hard. And in order to train people to do that, like I said, it’s not about adding on those … It’s not the additive process. “Let me teach you a cool trick for remembering names.” It’s not the additive process.

At Art of Charm, for example, it’s the subtractive process. What’s all this weird stuff? This insecure stuff, this baggage that you’ve got from when you were a kid. And I’m not talking about metaphysical stuff at all, but stuff that’s happened to you, bad habits you’ve grown over the years, and developed over the years. How do we get rid of that stuff? And I’m not talking about, “Share with me why Fluffy died. Cry. It’s okay.” I know a lot of self help seminars do that stuff and I hate that stuff. I’m not sure what the value is.

But for realistic folks who really want real results, I’m talking about, “Hey, Mike. You’re leaning in really close when you talk to people and it’s making people uncomfortable because you’re breaking their psychological space. How often do you start interactions like that? Oh, every time? That’s one reason why people, they don’t want to be around that. They might not even consciously realize this, but you’re doing this.” Okay. And we find that on video tape because we video tape people when they come to the program, Interacting with Others. And it might be like, “Hey, I don’t know if you know this, but you’ve got a breath issue. Or you’ve got a clothing issue.” That’s easily solved, but “Hey. You’re too close to me. You’re breaking psychological space in an uncomfortable way.” Good luck getting that advice from your business mentor. It’s just not gonna happen.

Most people, even if they could teach you a skill set like that, they don’t know how to articulate exactly what’s making them uncomfortable. And if they did, they wouldn’t know necessarily how to point it out to you in a tactful way. And even if they could do those two things, there’s not reason that somebody who’s not trained as a coach, for example, can then get you to develop a new habit to replace that old one that’s more effective.

So, there’s a lot of different layers here. It’s not just about being like, “oh. I ask my friend Timmy if he thinks I lean in too close and he said sure. So, now I’m just not gonna do that.” That’s not how you change habits. You break habits by replacing them with better ones. That’s what we’re really seeking to do at AOC. It’s gotta be … It’s gotta have that trifecta of identifying them, breaking them, and replacing them in terms of habits and behaviors.

Jay: Yeah. I think that’s really … Your value prop there is really powerful because if I was just thinking through it and you said it. Most people have a distorted perception of themselves because they think that they’re better looking than they are or they think they’re more sociable than they actually are and the ones sort of … The small circle of people that’ll actually call them out are maybe your wife, or your family, or your close friend. But then, like you said, they can call you out. They can do that part. But how are they gonna fix you. They don’t know. They’re not trained to do that. How do you break that and replace it with a solid habit or behavior. I think that’s very valuable.

That’s pretty cool. So, you said that you were, sort of, beta testing your tactics and stuff like that and logging, tracking, your tests and your results. You at one point, left the law firm and you traveled the world. And you’ve been to a whole bunch of places. You have some crazy stories, which we probably don’t have time to get into, but I recently heard your episode on [inaudible 00:16:09], which was fascinating, where you talk about how you got kidnapped.

Jordan: Jeez. [inaudible 00:16:14]. Holy cow.

Jay: Yeah. But it was a great episode because I heard you referring to those couple incidences, but I never actually got all the details. So, for anyone listening in, you can probably … We’ll have it linked up in the notes.

At what point where you like, “Okay. I have a business here. I want to pursue this full time. I don’t want to be a Wall Street lawyer anymore. I think I can actually make a business out of teaching people social influence and behavior.”

Jordan: Yeah. So the reason that I started the show was because we were going out, me and AJ, my business partner, we were going out every single night working on these techniques and we would talk about these things at tables at bars, or restaurants to whatever. And we’d be decompressing. And a lot of people started to notice things like, “Hey, you know every doorman. You know every bartender. You seem to know half the patrons here.” And a lot of guys noticed that. And another thing a lot of guys noticed is that when me and AJ were talking about, say, nonverbal communications and body language, that the women at the tables next to us would say, “Oh, my gosh. I can’t help but overhear this and this and this.”

So, we’d be sitting at this table with like nine women who were hanging out with us and there’d be 12 guys nursing beers in the corner of the bar or the restaurant or staring at the table. And so, what happened, funnily enough, guys would start to approach the table and the girls would be like, “Whatever. We’re talking to these guys. Go away.” And if we knew the guys they would be like, “Oh. Yeah. Why don’t I sit down and join you?” And they would get introduced to a bunch of women and things like that.

So, we’re 24 at the time, bear in mind. We’re still in college or law school. And AJ was a cancer biologist in grad school. Guys started to say things like, “Look. You come in here. You never wait in line. You never pay cover. You never pay for drinks. You’re always surrounded by different people, attractive women. Everyone knows you guys. What are you guys doing? I’ve heard you talk about stuff, but I don’t really get it.” And they’d say things like, “Look. If I can hang out with you guys next weekend, both nights, I will pay for everything. I’ll take you guys out to dinner before. I’ll get us food after. I’ll pay for all the drinks. I just want to see what you guys are doing because I don’t understand it and you guys are telling me it’s a teachable skill.”

So, we started to bring these guys around and eventually that group of one or two guys that wanted to hang out on the weekend and learn from us, turned into like 30 guys. So we started just talking with them before we would go into bars. And we’d be like, “Good. Don’t step on each other’s toes. Be cool. Do all the nonverbal body language stuff we taught you. And the rule is, if me and AJ are at the bar, you have to buy us a drink, whoever’s around there.” And they’re like, “Cool. Deal.”

Jay: That was the fee.

Jordan: That was the fee. And it was cool because we basically turned a bunch of guys that would normally be competing with each other and being kind of douchey and all competitive and weird, and we turned them into this cool group of friends that we had. Every time we walking into any venue there’d be guys that we had taught one weekend or another. And they’d be like, “Hey. What’s up? I’m still following the rule. What are you guys drinking?” It was great.

Jay: That’s so cool.

Jordan: Then some guys were saying things like, “Look. Okay. There’s gotta be more to this. It’s fun when we go out. But there’s more to this and I want to be able to do it when you’re not there.” And we said, “Great. Sure. Fine. Pay us $100 and we’ll take you all afternoon.” And I remember taking this one business student out one afternoon and helping him do all kinds of stuff and running him through drills and exercises. And at the end of the afternoon he gave us like $600. And we were like, “Uh. Are we on for the next six weekends?” He goes, “No. This was just super valuable.” And I was like, “Oh. All right.”

And we started to talk about the things we were teaching these guys on a podcast, The Art of Charm. And we started the show and we thought, “Look. This is a really easy way for us to, instead of having these guys follow us around and repeating ourselves, they can download this. And they can listen to all 20 episodes, or whatever we had at the time, not even. And they can catch up on all the basics. And then when they come to meet us, they’re kind of versed in all this.”

And what we didn’t realize was the podcast was gonna get downloaded, not just in Ann Arbor, Michigan. It was gonna get downloaded in freaking South Africa and Europe and Canada and all over the US. So, we started getting people being like, “Hey. If you can teach me this stuff, I’ll pay you.” Well, I’m not gonna fly out to Albuquerque. So, yeah. Let’s do it on Skype for $50 an hour.”

Well, as soon as we offered it for $50 an hour, we booked out our next weeks and weeks and weeks. And we said, “Okay. We need to raise the price.” So, we raised it to $100. We booked out again. And I remember this investment banker, this mortgage banker actually, in California goes, “You guys need to be on retainer like real lawyers.” And he gave us $5000. And I went, “What?” And he’s like, “I just want to be able to call you.” And he goes, “By the way, not for me, but for everyone else. Raise your f-ing prices.” And I said, “But we’re not really coaches.” He goes, “No, no, no. I’ve hired all those coaches. You’re much better than they are at it. The fact that you can do it. You can articulate it.” He’s like, “A lot of these fake coaches are just people who say they’re coaches. They don’t actually know how to teach anything. They’re people who created a website to sell a product. They don’t know how to teach this stuff.”

So, that sort of got around both online and offline. And I remember one guy just said, “Look. If I can come and stay with a week in New York, I’ll give you $7000.” And I thought, “You got a deal man.” So, we brought up our other friend, Johnny, who still works here at AOC. And he created a little curriculum and he took this guy out for seven or eight straight days, sent him off. And then we talked about that experience on the podcast. And once that happened, we were like, “Yeah. This crazy guy came and stayed with us for eighth days. You know? And he paid us this much money and we taught him all this stuff. And he left. And it was just so fun.” As soon as that happened, we were getting inundated with emails that were like, “Hey. I want to do that. I want to do that. I want to do that.” So, that’s how bootcamp was born.

We basically said, “Okay. We need a real curriculum. We need to run it through educators who are professional. We need worksheets and we need a book. And we need a handbook and all this stuff. Materials, we need drills and exercises, and field coaches. And we can have groups of people come in.” And that’s how the whole bootcamp, The Art of Charm Bootcamp product that we now run, is now in LA instead of New York. But that’s how the whole thing began. It was demand driven. It wasn’t something we made up.

Jay: That’s really cool. That’s a great story. So, essentially, along the way, it’s one of those multi-thousand dollar offers, or deals that you did, side deals, that where you were basically like, “Okay. This is better than being a lawyer. I’m gonna do this full time. I’m gonna go all in and really make a business out of this.” And it sounds like the podcasting was … It was like a virtuous circle as in it helped market yourself and it put the content out there and it would just grow itself.

You started that back in the day, before podcasting was a thing. And it seems like podcasting … You know, I’m a newbie. I only started hearing about it after 2014 or so, Serial and those thing came out. And I was like, “Oh, that’s cool. It’s podcast.” In the early days, it sounds like it was just you telling stories and maybe not even having guests. Was it just you pumping out episodes and trying to teach people?

Jordan: Yeah. It was. It was us, me and AJ, in the basement trying to teach people basic skills. And then I remember once we were like, “Oh. We’re releasing every week. Cool. Why don’t we interview someone and get their stuff for free? Their program and their books and stuff.” They sent it to us and we were like, “Whoa. We can get free books? This is amazing.” So, we kept doing that and interviewing and then AJ was like, “Look, I don’t want to turn this into an interview podcast because there’s a lot of those.” Which is funny because there still are because it really is an easy way to create content.

I started interviewing people and trying to keep those at a minimum, but they just turned out to be good. And it was easier than trying to … Once I moved to New York instead of Ann Arbor, it was much easier, easier than meshing schedules with AJ, was to interview somebody. And then we also saw that if we interviewed somebody who was kind of popular, they would link to us on their blog and then 100 new guys would start listening. And then we’d interview someone else and then 100 new guys would start listening because of that. And then we were like, “Well, wait a minute.” That was sort of the original “get a big name, they’ll send you their audience.” But back then, it actually worked. Right? Because they had personal [inaudible 00:24:49].

Jay: That doesn’t really work anymore.

Jordan: No, no, no. Like for example, you interview me here. You might tag me. I might retweet it, but I’m not mailing it out to my list. It doesn’t make any sense. Back then it was like, I was on this called a podcast and you could download and mp3 to your computer and play it. And it’s me talking with this guy and people are like, “What? Cool, man.” So, they would download and play it in Winamp. I mean, that was how this stuff worked back then.

Jay: Yeah. That’s right. Because I listen to your podcast and it’s like … I think one of your intros or outros or segments is like, you’re like, “Whether you’re a first time listener or you’re a 500th episode.” And I’m like, “Damn. 500 episodes. That’s insane.” And you’re up to way more than that now. What sort of episodes are your highest downloaded or most popular ones, if there’s like a handful of them? What subject matters?

Jordan: The highest

Jay: Yeah.

Jordan: The highest rated or most downloaded are the toolbox episodes at theartofcharm.com/toolbox because those are … Some of those are years old. Some of them are weeks old. Those are things like resilience, body language, eye contact, vocal tonality, the way you sit, stand, and walk, things like grit. Depression is one of things we’re covering soon, as well. A lot of things that are really concrete tools and those are the ones that are taught by the faculty, and that’s a loaded word, at Art of Charm. So, it’s me, AJ, Johnny, the other coaches, we talk about things that we teach at bootcamp. And we really go deep dive, versus some of the other shows, which are guest.

The guests do get tons of downloads. I mean, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Mike Rowe, those kind of folks, they get ton of downloads. But the toolbox really is where people just start going crazy and downloading those things hundreds of thousands of times because that’s where there’s a lot of … Every hour long toolbox that you listen to, you’re gonna have like 20 things that you can change and use right out of the box on persuasion, negotiation techniques, influence, body language, all that stuff. Those are extremely popular.

Jay: Are the sort of, How do I Talk to Attractive Women, are those, I imagine those are probably pretty popular, as well?

Jordan: Those still are, which is funny because I just got married, as you mentioned. Those things for us are naturally, those are quite popular, but it depends on the demographic. Divorced guys love that. Young guys love that. But I think a lot of people, men and women, they really are listening to those and thinking, “How can I apply this in my life.” That’s why we took a lot of the dating stuff that we used to focus on and we really just revamp it.

So, a new toolbox on body language or How to Make Friends in a New Town, that’s a good example. How to Make Friends in a New Town. You listen to that and you’re like, “Oh. Great. This is about how to make friends in a new town.” But if you’re single, it’s basically a crash course on how do I meet a ton of really cool women and men in my town so that I can have an active dating life. But if you’re married and you move with your wife, now it’s a, “Great. How can I create a really strong social circle in this new place where I moved.” There’s 98% overlap from the dating stuff to the lifestyle stuff, and frankly to the sales stuff most of the things apply, as well.

Persuasion and influence is not just how do I get this guy or this girl to do something, or come home with me, or go on a date with me, or whatever. It’s like all right. I sell a $200,000 software product. How do I generate enough trust with these people for them to even entertain the idea of purchasing that from me. That skill set is largely the same. I can point … The differences are trivial really.

Jay: Yeah, I mean. There’s so much psychology behind. It all breaks down to your understanding of human psychology and how people react to what you put out there. I think it’s fascinating and I love your work.

I want to just quickly talk about podcasting because you’re one of the seasoned podcasters. You obviously been doing it for years now. What do you see as the future. So, in Asia there’s not very many podcasts, which is one of the reasons why I started this podcast. But I see it as a positive trend, at least out here and it’s growing. I know there’s a bit of fatigue in the states with the podcast circuit. But this is part of your core business. I guess it’s advertising, marketing your products there at Art of Charm, like course and that stuff. What do you see as sort of the future of podcasting? Are we still on the uptrend?

Jordan: Yeah. That’s a good question to sort of wrap us up here. It is definitely on the upswing. You can tell … And this isn’t just wishful thinking. I for sure thought, “Eh. We’re in a bubble and eventually people will go back to ignoring us like they did before.” But no, they’re much more popular than they were. We’ve reached 65% awareness of podcasting, inside America, anyway, which is a generally good barometer. It might even be North America, not just United States. I’d have to take another look at the study.

65% awareness, but only 15% consumption. So that means that 65% of people know what podcasts are, but only 15% have listened to one, I think, in the last month. So, that’s definitely gonna change when people who listen to the radio in the car have 4G in the car, which is basically gonna be every car over the next three to five years.

Additionally, as awareness grows, it’s gonna be like Netflix where it’s like, “Oh. I could go get Netflix, but I go to Blockbuster Video and I rent videos because I have VCR.” Well, that’s all fine and good, but Apple TV, Smart TV’s. Everyone’s got a smart phone now. Grandmas and grandpas have smart phones. Your car is gonna have smart stuff. And then what happens over the next five to 10 when self driving cars happen. What are you gonna do in your car? Some people don’t want to watch movies because they get a little dizzy. What are they gonna do? Lay down and listen to a podcast. Or for the first few years, sit up, touch the steering wheel, and let the car drive itself while you listen to something without using a stinking AUX cable for your phone.

So, you’re going to see a lot of consumption like that happen. And as other counties, like Australia and the rest of Europe start to follow suit with podcasting, because it’s not as popular there, it’s just going to come into play where radio, especially for music and talk, is such a weird secondary thing, it will go the way of analog TV in North America where you can’t get analog TV anymore. You can’t. You can’t have TV in Michigan, where I grew up. You can’t have analog TV. You have to have digital television. It doesn’t mean you have to buy cable, but you can’t get analog channels. And everyone has cable, because otherwise you’ll get two channels and they’ll be weird.

So, it’s gonna happen to that point where you’re consuming things over the internet, whether it’s YouTube, podcast, etc. All of that terrestrial stuff is going to get phased out. And people aren’t going to not want to listen to talk anymore. They thought was gonna happen when television came out. They thought, “Oh. Radio’s screwed.” Not at all. It’s more popular than it was, even back then because people still like to listen to things while they’re doing other things.

You’re gonna see a lot of consumption go up. I’m not saying it’s gonna increase all the way to 100% or everybody’s listening to podcast, but it’s gonna be damn close and it’s gonna most likely be the same number of people that listen to the radio now, which is basically everyone.

Jay: Yeah. I 100% agree. Jordan, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was a please speaking with you. Last question is really, sort of, what are you working on that AOC in 2017 for the rest of the year, and where can people find you, follow you, connect with you, learn a little bit more about you?

Jordan: Sure. So, you’re already listening to a podcast. Definitely check out The Art of Charm podcast in iTunes or wherever you’re listening to podcasts or you can just checkout theartofcharm.com. We have a lot of little drills and exercises that will help you with nonverbal communication and things like that. Networking for business or your personal life. So, hopefully some of your show listeners will start listening to AOC and the rest of them will hit the website and get some practical exercises and drills to get better at concrete skills.

Jay: Absolutely. Great. Thanks so much for your time, man. Appreciate it.

Jordan: Thank you. All right.

Jay: Take care.

Jordan: Bye-bye.