Today’s show guest runs one of Hong Kong’s hottest fashion retail companies, and his name is Luke Grana, who runs a company by the same name as his last name, Grana. Grana is one of Hong Kong’s hottest startups, and it’s one that I’m most excited about right now, because last year they raised a $10 million round from Alibaba’s entrepreneurship fund, and that was only two years after they started their operations.

Now, Luke’s business model is very simple, and his team sources the best fabrics from around the world, cuts out the middlemen, and also has no retail stores, which leaves him with direct-to-consumer eCommerce fashion, that is at a 50% profit margin. Luke started his business in Australia but quickly moved to Hong Kong due to a strength in logistics, namely, the cheap rates he could get on global DHL shopping.

Today, I had the pleasure of visiting their beautiful 18,000 square foot warehouse space down in the south side of Hong Kong, catch him and a bunch of his team and had a nice time hearing about his story as an entrepreneur. I’m a huge fan of the company’s style. It’s very basic, and clean, and affordable. They’re able to offer clothes made from fine materials such as Peruvian cotton, Chinese silk, Japanese denim, and Irish linen at a very affordable price. All right, let’s get on to the show.

Let’s get started. So, I am sitting in here in the Grana warehouse in south of the island in Hong Kong. It’s a very special treat, because usually, my show guest, I usually do it over the internet on Skype. So, I’m very happy to be sitting here with Luke Grana, who is the founder of grana.com, one of the rising stars in my radar here. It’s a Hong Kong startup, so I have a soft spot for people that are based here in Hong Kong, being based here myself for 12 years.

So, Luke, thank you so much for coming on the show. We’re very happy to have you here. For the audience listening in, can you please just introduce yourself who is Luke Grana, what do you do for a living?

Luke: Thanks for having me on the show. So I’m Luke Grana, I work at grana.com, where we’re a new eCommerce fashion brand. We’re based in Hong Kong. We’ve been here growing for the past 2 and a half years, so we’re still developing as a brand, and I’m the CEO and founder of Grana.

Jay: Awesome. So, Grana is slowly becoming … Or not slowly, I guess rapidly becoming more and more of a household name. I’m seeing you guys pop up a lot, both online and offline, which is nice. I was actually introduced to your company by one of the investors, David Chang. I had a dinner with him a couple of months ago, and he was actually wearing one of your Grana shirts. We were talking about the startup ecosystem here in Hong Kong, and he of course, didn’t miss a chance to talk up his portfolio, and I like the shirt he was wearing. And so, it brought me to researching your company a little bit more, and luckily, I was able to get in touch with Amanda and we set this talk up. So again, thank you for your time.

Let’s take a step back, and let’s talk about your past, and what led you up to this point. I mean, it seems like you have had several entrepreneurial ventures in the past, so you’re somewhat of a serial entrepreneur. Tell us about your background, growing up, and what you studied, and what caused you to want to become an entrepreneur, and what eventually led you down to start in Grana.

Luke: Yeah, absolutely. So, just a quick background. I’m born in Australia from Sydney, I’m 33 years old now, I just had my birthday few weeks ago.

Jay: Oh, happy birthday.

Luke: Thank you. So I guess, always growing up, I just love businesses, and the idea of starting a business, so I always had that as I was growing up. I studied a Bachelor of Commerce, majoring in marketing at McCoy University. Actually, my last year of university, I set up my first coffee shop, which was designated at the campus. I set that up for AU $20,000, and within nine months, I was able to sell that for AU $190,000. So, it’s a really good introduction to business and small business. I think that also really propelled me as always wanting to do my own business.

Jay: That’s incredible. So, you had your first exit in college, and with a coffee shop?

Luke: Yeah, with a small coffee shop.

Jay: How did you fund that initially? Was it your own savings? Was it friends and family that helped you?

Luke: While I was at … The first couple of years in the university, I was working in different coffee shops. So I actually saved up AU$20,000 over two years, and I invested that into the first café, and had a pretty good exit, and also, it was very good learnings to how to build a small team, how to create systems, create culture. So that was a really good first business.

And Then I actually … After university, I did two more cafes in Sydney, set them up, built a small team, and then sold them pretty quickly after opening them. So hat was the first introduction to business, and had some great success and also great learnings, and then from 2008 to 2012, I built a business in Australia, New Zealand called ChargePoint, and this was very much a left fields top of business. We installed electric vehicle charging stations. So, I worked on that business for a few years, and again, built a small team, raised a bit of capital, but my biggest learning was that market timing. I think when I was talking about electric vehicles, it was still very early day, and we were about 10 years ahead of the curve.

But again, it was really, really good lessons for me, and also lessons about managing cash flow and building team. So actually, I was able to sell ChargePoint to Latens, which is quite a big infrastructure company. Not for a great exit, but it was good to have that as experience. And then in the beginning of 2003, I was actually looking at industries, looking at new business opportunities, and I looked at the fashion industry and realized that it’s being disrupted right now, and there’s a very big legacy fashion businesses with thousands of retail shops with local warehouses, with middlemen, and I just thought, “It’s time to change that,” and with the growth of online.

So actually, in the beginning of 2013, I did a trip to Peru to visit my brother who is living there, and I learned about Peruvian Pima cotton, and I realized that this is a beautiful luxurious soft fabric, and this is a great product to sell t-shirts. So I started working with some fabric mills in Peru, and at that time, I came back to Australia and I realized that I’m not from the fashion world, I don’t know much about fashion. So, I got a job at Zara in Sydney for the first three months of 2013 and, which is on the floor selling, speaking to customers in the changing rooms, learning about price points and styles. And then actually, I got a job for the next three months with French Connection. So a really good on the ground experience, learning about fashion.

So, then I took that experience and I built the first version of our business plan, which still remains today. Our focus is on three pillars, it’s on having the world’s best fabrics, so really traveling the world to find the best fabrics for our customers. The second one is just focusing on timeless wardrobe essentials, so focus on fabric and really good fit, and then the third one, which also led me to move to Hong Kong was just having very low and transparent pricing. I wanted to create a really lean business model, and I looked at setting up a global distribution center in Sydney, but realized that Sydney, the volume going from Sydney to a global market was very low, so the prices were very difficult.

So, then I landed on Hong Kong and realized Hong Kong is the best location to set up a global distribution center. I started talking to DHL and realized that the rates that they could provide Grana, and the shipping times was actually really, really transformational as setting up a business. Hong Kong’s also a free tax port and also the world’s sourcing city, especially for fashion.

At that time, it was mid 2013, and I had $200,000 of savings, and got a one-way ticket to Hong Kong, and set up a small warehouse in Kennedy Town. We had 500 square feet, and the first batch of t-shirts arrived. So I had a little office, I had 2,000 t-shirts and started working with a … And now, ahead of technology on the first version of the website.

And then in the beginning of April 2014, we actually went through our bigger launch. It took some time to get there, but in three weeks, we actually sold out of 2,000 t-shirts, and shipped them to eight markets. So that was really our proof point, and up until then it was just my capital just to get us there, and off the back of that, we were able to raise our first US $1 million of seed funding. Actually, the first investor was Bluebell Group, they’ve been in Hong Kong for a long time. So, that was a bit of background and how I got over to Hong Kong.

Jay: Wow, that’s great story. Thank you for sharing that with our audience. Let’s talk a little bit about … So for the audience that doesn’t understand, would you consider Grana a fast fashion or is it … I guess, it’s kind of a subsegment of fast fashion or a cousin if you will. How does the supply chain work? I mean you mentioned earlier that you saw a need to disrupt … Or a disruption that was happening right now in that whole chain, right? So, let’s talk about traditional fashion and how that works, versus say, a fast fashion like a Zara, or H&M, or Uniqlo, and then how does Grana differ from those two models?

Luke: The way that we saw it was that there’s a lot of very big fashion brands, and they’re selling a lot of different products, and they have the inventory split all around the world, and in shops everywhere. I think the biggest learning that we got from investors and also advice is that, inventory is a killer to a lot of businesses. So, we wanted to create a business that we had low inventory, and having one inventory base to be able to ship globally. And I think being in Hong Kong allows us to do that. And then we also look at the product range, where it’s like the Zara and H&M and these other big fashion brands that sell so many products, and it’s really about selling collections and styling, where we’re very much more about the product. We say that Grana we’re item-driven. So, we’re really trying to find items that have a high product market fit, that is in need for these products, rather than saying, “We’re going to sell you every product.”

So, for example, our launched products, still some of our bestsellers, so we launch with t-shirts. So this is a Peruvian Pima cotton t-shirt, it’s a really beautiful luxury t-shirt, but we sell it for $15, and that we believe is a product market fit, and up until now, it’s still one of our bestsellers. And then the next products we launched was our silk shirts and silk tank. So for example, looking at our silk tank, we sell that for US $29. That product quality at that price point, that’s what we also say has product market fit, and that’s again, one of our bestsellers.

And then we launched a product, the Cashmere sweater. So it’s Mongolian Cashmere, it’s beautiful quality, and we sell that for $99. And again, it’s very hard to find that quality at that price point. So this is our philosophy, it’s really being more item-driven, and finding products that the market really, really wants, and there’s a demand at our price point.

Jay: And you’re able to bring down the cost of all of that because, well, first of all, you don’t carry heavy inventory, and you don’t have retail stores where you’re spending this big overhead, right? And then you’ve obviously have found … You’ve moved to Hong Kong which is one of the premier locations for logistics, so you’ve been able to negotiate very low shipping rates with DHL and what not.

So traditionally, let’s say I’m Zara, for example. I have a new collection coming out for summer 2017. How does it work? So basically, I have designers, they design it, and then they go out, and they … You have to go source the … Can you walk us through that process and then what parts that you cut out to be able to bring that cost all the way down, and product for the consumer?

Luke: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just again ,I’m not from a fashion world, so I don’t know it’s being done that much in the past, but what I’ve been told that some brands, it takes them nine months to replenish and nine months to go through the design and development, where at Grana, they’re just nine from firsthand, it’s actually very, very quick. So our team, our designers come out with a design, we send them to our mill and garment maker, which is very uniquely integrated. For example, talking about our suit products, we work directly with a mill and a garment maker in Hoojo, so we can come up with a design, they can send back the samples very quickly, we approve them, and then it’s really about four weeks to make.

The advantages of us having a direct relationship with the fabric mill and garment maker makes it very, very quick. And also, we’ve been working with them for over two years now, so we’ve got very, very fast replenishment times. So I think our speed is very quick to get products developed into our warehouse, and then obviously it’s one to two days shipping. But I think the biggest advantage that we have, is that we’re very, very data-driven. So, in any new product that we launch, we’ll always do very, very limited colors and limited numbers. And if we sell, well, we’ll see that very quickly. And then if it’s doing well, then obviously we have a chase order, and then we will put that product in one of our timeless collections, timeless products.

But if it’s not doing well, then we’ll just sell out and we’ll leave it. But that’s also, I thin, a lot of people say that Grana’s always out of stock, and that’s true, and we’re working on that, but it’s also a good thing because we’re keeping a really lean inventory base. Sp whenever something comes out of stock, I like it. It was like, “Okay, good. That’s proven. Let’s get another order in,” and lets you know, beef up the quantities of that. So I think that’s also how we’re thinking of where … Just not knowing how other fashion brands operate, but I can imagine that their lead times will be long. They send product to all these shops. If it doesn’t sell in the shop, then they really have to discount it. It was a way of really trying to come out with a lean, lean inventory, our base model.

Jay: Yeah, I think that is your competitive advantage because, like you said, from a consumer perspective, if something’s hot and off the shelf then you’re frustrated because you want that product. But from the other side where you’re running the business, that’s proof of concept, that’s market feedback, that’s like, “Okay, what we’re creating is actually valuable to our target or niche,” right?

What would you say is your target consumer? What’s the ideal … What’s the avatar, like who … What specific type of person will buy Grana’s products?

Luke: That’s a good question. I mean we say we’re creating timeless essentials, someone in 15 in Sydney up to a 70 year old in New York can always wear Grana, and that’s the brand we’re trying to create. However, we do have two archetypes. So, we have archetypes that are about 25 to 35, and that they live in an urban city, they have a mindset of buying direct-to-consumer brands, they can afford luxury, but they realize in today’s day and age, you don’t need to go and spend and pay eight tons of markup, you can go to a new direct-to-consumer brand and get very high quality at a fair and transparent price, so that’s trying to find the mindset we’re tapping into.

Jay: Got you. If there was one or two competing brands that parallel closely to Grana’s image look, what would they be? Would they be like a J. Crew, or would they be like a … I don’t know. Is any of that you guys see yourself as competitors with?

Luke: Yeah. I mean, definitely. I think we’ve chosen an industry that’s very big in the street, but it’s also very competitive. The way we look at potential competitors is offline and online, and I think in the brands that Grana, we would see as competitors will be like the J. Crews or Club Monacos where, even the cost and theory where in a way providing that quality, but obviously the price point of Grana is much, much lower. And then there’s a lot of new direct-to-consumer brands especially in the US that are doing very well, but we really see other direct-to-consumer eCommerce brands as a very good thing, and there’s more education in the global market about, you don’t need to get to a shop and try products on and buy from the shop, you can actually buy through the internet and literally pay half the price.

So, we think that direct-to-consumer eCommerce brands is a good thing for the whole industry.

Jay: I absolutely agree. It’s funny, I read an article just this past week about someone had written up their experience buying at Tesla online. But literally, it was just click, click, click, colors, interior and then done, and then it gets shipped … Not ship to you, I guess you just go pick it up from a-

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. This is basically the future. I mean this is how consumers are going to shop, going forward, and you’ve done a very good job of positioning Grana, and I think that … Obviously, it’s been very successful for you. You mentioned when we’re walking in and talking a bit earlier about your pop-ups that you have from time to time, and you said you’ve had a bunch, globally actually, what was the rationale behind that? How has that actually helped your brand, considering that you are just an online direct-to-consumer type brand?

Luke: It’s also a good question. When we first started, we said, “We’re going to be online only,” and that was always the plan. But then we realized that we needed to get the word out there, and we did a pop-up in Hong Kong, and actually, we did it on a Saturday and a Sunday, and we did 12,000 US per day, and it was just a really good introduction for the brand to Hong Kong. But from then on, we still very much see Grana as an online eCommerce brand, with the support of online pop-ups.

So, over the past two years, we have done 10 pop-ups in actually four countries. So we’ve got a little pop-up team and they’re always scouting locations and keeping it very lean and nimble, but we’re going to a new market and setting up a pop-up. But the idea is fantastic, because we do always do a launch party, and then we do one event every week, so we’re really building community. And then actually when we leave, so we only do like a pop-up, say one to two months, but when we leave, the sales in that country just continue to grow. Same thing that happened in Singapore and Australia, and what happens is that those core customers act as our advocates, that share Grana with their family and friends. They are a little bit expensive to set up, and that they’re breaking even on a store level, but the idea is really to create more awareness about Grana.

Jay: I love the scarcity of value of a pop-up, because you see it happen all the time, like In-N-Out Burger will have a pop-up in Hong Kong and it will sell out within hours. It’s such a great way of marketing if you can do it properly, and it sounds like you are.

So, tell us about your customer base now, where are most of your online shoppers coming from, and what are some markets that you hope to penetrate in the future?

Luke: Yeah, absolutely. We see ourselves very much as a global brand. We have about 70 team members here in Hong Kong, we do a lot of things in-house. We have about 25 nationalities, so very much a global team. We’re sourcing global, so we have about 10 origins of fabrics, and we’re shipping global, so right now, we’re shipping to 12 markets. But actually over the next few months, we’re going to be opening up shipping to more markets. But still our focus up until now has been on floor markets, so it’s definitely in Hong Kong, which is our home market, Australia, Singapore, and the US. So these have been our main markets where the majority of our sales and customers are coming from. And we do love the fact that we can ship globally and sales are just organically growing every month from these new markets.

We have the mentality of thinking global, but also to create more awareness, we need to be acting more local. So we’ve done these local pop-ups in Singapore and Australia. Right now, we’re developing a small US team to do more local pop-ups in the US, but we still love the fact that we have a centralized team and a warehouse in Hong Kong, keeping it really lean.

Jay: If you don’t mind sharing, what were some of the challenges that you faced when you’ve decided to move to Hong Kong? Because one of the big themes in the startup ecosystem here is how difficult it is to start a company in Hong Kong, despite all the benefits it has as a … Location wise, central within Asia. Logistically it’s superb, one of the best in the world. Tax wise, it’s very good. It’s easy to set up logistically and just doing all the paperwork and stuff, it’s very easy to set up the business, but the cost are just so high. So that’s one of the biggest complaints about … For startups is, “I’d love to set up a business in Hong Kong, I just can’t afford it right anywhere.”

You guys have a beautiful space here. One of the largest spaces I’ve seen personally in Hong Kong, and so what we’re some of the challenges that you’ve faced when you decided to move up here, and where there any points where you’re like, “Oh no, I’ve made a wrong decision, maybe I should move back to Australia or a different place?”

Luke: Yeah, I mean most people who’s starting a business always that first round of capital is always the hardest. So I remember I moved over to Hong Kong, and basically I just had the business plan, I ordered a couple of thousand t-shirts, but I did have $200,000 and I needed to oversee, make that last as long as possible. I basically got to the point where I’ve spent a lot of that just in setting up, and getting the website where it needed to go, and getting the products here, setting up the warehouse, and setting up the initial systems. But then what I was struggling with was raising that first round of capital, and I was going around talking to potential investors and trying to raise capital but, we haven’t launched yet, and we didn’t really have a product.

That was really a big challenge, and what was happening is that my money was running out. I spent a lot of my money and I was starting to have to get credit cards just to continue going. So, I’m sure a lot of other people have been in that situation. It’s really quite difficult. But then, I think what we did do well was meeting potential investors and saying, “Hey, we haven’t launched yet, but if we can launch and if we can sell 2,000 t-shirts, through what we call a beta launch, then will you invest in the business?” And putting that on them, a lot of them would say, “Yeah, if you could actually do that, then we’ll consider it, ” so that’s what we did.

We went through a beta launch, sold out all the t-shirts, and then went back to them and said, “Hey, we’ve just sold all the t-shirts.” We’ve got a proof point, people loving the product, the price points is obviously great. We have proven that we can use Hong Kong as a hub, and shipped to eight markets, so then obviously raising that first round of capital was a lifesaver. And I think that was very much a big challenge, a really good learning too.

Jay: That’s awesome. That’s a great story. It’s almost like a kick starter type thing where you’re like, go to your investors, “Okay, we don’t have anything out there yet, but if we do, our success will be here.”

Luke: If we do, so we’re trying to get that commitment off the ground.

Jay: That’s a great strategy you used actually. So I think that’s definitely a good takeaway for the listeners. So, speaking of funding, you guys did a pretty nice round last year with Alibaba, right? With Cindy, right? So congratulations on that. Now, that’s basically put you on another level of startup track. I think when you starting to play with the big boys, which is great, what do you envision your growth to be like with that last round of funding? What are your goals for 2017 and in the next 18 months so to speak?

Luke: Yeah, I mean that funding was awesome for the business. It was a series A round and we got them a mix of equity from Alibaba and other investors and also venture debt, so it was fantastic. And really, it enabled the business to hire some key people, especially on the product’s side and on the fulfillment side, and on the tech side, so I think we have really strengthened the team to make it much more scalable, it allowed us to move into this space here and obviously having bigger warehouses allows us to really order more inventory, and have more potential growth. But then also, just to continue growing sales.

We’re in the stage now that we’re selling out of stocks so quickly, so to be able to reorder stock, to continue growing our sales, our phase is great. On average, we’ve been growing sales at about 15% every month, so it just allowed us to do that, and now, what we’re doing is we’re really strengthening the categories that are working from Grana, so the Chinese silk, Peruvian Pima, Mongolian Cashmere. But then also look at new categories such us outer wear, active wear, we already did our first launch of that and we got a lot of great feedback. We’ve got new products coming out soon. So looking at new potential categories, but also new markets.

I think US is definitely a great market for Grana. We have one to two day shipping, it’s tax free, customs free. So from the backend logistics point of view, it’s a great market for us. But also, I think, our products speak very well to the US market, so that’s been growing at a tremendous rate every month, so it allows us to set up a local marketing team in the US. But then also obviously, having Alibaba on board is helping us with China as well. So, we’re super excited about China.

Jay: That was going to be my next question. How do you see that planning … Obviously, China is one of the most difficult markets to crack for, especially for foreigners, so having them alongside of you as a strategic partner is fabulous, because I think if you get a partner with anyone in China, and then it has to be-

Luke: Absolutely. We’ve seen that the two biggest eCommerce markets in the world is US and China. So China, we’re definitely going in … We’re entering pretty soon actually, we’re already shipping some boxes now. But in the next couple of months, we’ll be open on Tmall, so it’s very much a soft launch. And like you said, we’ve got a lot to learn in China. We want to ship boxes, we want to get feedback, get feedback on the value proposition of the brand, how the product is perceived in China. This year is more about testing, a lot of small tests, and we’ve got a bunch of assumptions that we’re getting feedback on, but then hopefully we can build out a strategic plan and really give China a big focus next year.

But in saying that, we’ve now got on board a China country manager, and we’re building a very small team in Shanghai, and working closely with Alibaba and Tmall on developing sales. So, it’s really exciting, exciting times.

Jay: That’s awesome. Last couple of questions, Luke. And again, thanks for your time and showing me around the warehouse and the showroom. It’s been awesome. The first of the last three questions let’s say, where do you see Grana in five to ten years? I mean, this is a question that I like to ask a lot of startup founders, and the sort of politically correct conservative answer I always get in a lot of times, so I just want to focus on the product and the customer, and which is great and I appreciate that. But at the end of the day, I like to ask founders, do you want to grow this company and [Ipo 00:30:32] it? Are you okay with exiting earlier than a public offering? Or do you want to just run it private and just grow it?

I mean, this company has your last name on it, so this is very personal to you as well. So, Luke, how do you see this planning out, if all the stars align and you keep this trajectory, which is you’re doing incredible, where does Grana stand in 10 years from now?

Luke: I think I love the fact that we’ve got a brand that we still have a majority control of the company, and we can make strategic decisions, and I really, really would hate to ever sell out. That’s definitely not the plan. I think we can grow the business into a large eCommerce brand. I think it’s such an exciting time, especially just with our new business model and just being able to really drive that over the next five to ten years, and seeing where the brand ends up. But I feel very positive about the brand, I think we’re building the pillars to make it a global brand, and I think, definitely in 10 years time, I’m still seeing Grana continue to grow and open up to new markets and add more products to the range.

Strategically being in Hong Kong allows us to ship to a lot of markets. One of the brands that we look at that we think is doing awesome is ASOS. They’re shipping to 240 markets now, and I think that’s our vision. One day, hopefully to be able to be shipping to all these markets. Ipo, I mean that’s definitely way off, but I think the plan especially with the team is not to sell out and be our own brand. But that’s also like we’ve got a really … Manage the growth. I think now what we’re really focus on is ROI and everything that we do, we’ve only got a limited amount of capital, we’ve just got to make sure that we use that to the best that we can. Keeping control over the cost. We’ve got a good amount of funding now, but now, our attention’s more turning towards cutting costs and optimizing and getting to break even on a cash flow level, and that’s what I mean for that next year, but it’s also a fine tune of growing because we’re growing pretty quickly now.

So, in the next couple of years is really important for the brand, but long-term, I do see Grana as hopefully being a big brand and adding value, and really shaking up in the industry.

Jay: Awesome. Great answer. I think that your investors would like to hear that last piece about your ROI and then what not, it’s always nice to hear startup founders that are also concerned about the money that they’ve taken in. So as an investor myself, I often ask that question as well.

Okay. I want to ask for one last piece of parting advice that you can give to aspiring entrepreneurs, maybe based in Hong Kong. Hong Kong obviously is a big fashion type city. A lot of people love these segments. Let’s say someone is trying to start off and following your footsteps, Luke, what piece of advice could you give them?

Luke: I think Grana, we’re still pretty young, so we’re still trying to prove ourselves, I’m not sure if I can talk from that much authority, but there are a couple of things that I’ve picked up along the way that I really believe in, I think the first one is staying true to the original vision. I know there’s a lot of talk about the lean startup and pivoting a lot, and I do believe in that, but I think when I thought of the idea for Grana, there was a really strong idea for the brand of, and the world’s best fabrics, timeless essentials, and at great prices.

And I think along the way, investors or people that I meet always challenge that, and they say, “Why don’t you put up the prices?” Or, “Why don’t you become more fashionable?” I think one of the lessons that I got was stay true to the original idea, rather than trying to pivot too much, because then what happens, it’s the idea that you originally had gets manipulated a lot. I’m not saying that don’t be flexible, but I’m saying that what has worked well for Grana is staying true to what we really believe. I think that’s the first one.

And then I think the second one is, startups are always hard. There has been some really tough times on cash flow, on team, on value proposition, but I think for me, it’s just always persevering. Just always having that can-do attitude, so that’s also a big lesson for me.

Jay: Great. Thank you for those last two pieces as parting advice, I think our listeners are going to get a lot out of it. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it, I know how busy you are and it’s just been so nice to come here and sit down with you. And of course, I’m a big champion advocate of Hong Kong startup, so I love seeing you guys do well and continue to grow, so we’ll definitely keep our eye on you and I’m sure the audience will as well.

Last question is really where can people find you, follow you, connect with you? I know Amanda is probably the gatekeeper here, but what’s the best place other than … I mean grana.com obviously, so are you on social media?

Luke: Yeah, absolutely. It’s been great to have this talk and thank you also for the time. I’m always on LinkedIn, always open to receiving connections, so I’m just in LinkedIn, Luke Grana. Also, Instagram, follow me on Instagram, so Luke Grana. But also just go to the website, grana.com. Just check it out. We love feedback. We actually have a program called Grana Labs, where we have 3,000 members and we always get different feedback on products or marketing. Check it out, sign up to the labs, send an email in, and it will show it get to me, but yeah.

Jay: Awesome. Thanks again for your time. It’s such a pleasure, Luke, to sit down with you and we wish you the best of luck.

Luke: Thank you, cheers.