Today’s guest is Megan Casey. Megan is the founder and CEO of Pack. Pack is a social network for dogs and dog owners, like a Facebook for dogs. Megan started Pack in 2013 when she realized that dog owners were an under served segment of the technology community. Dog owners were marketed to but not connected with each other in a meaningful way.

Megan is a very seasoned start up founder. Before founding Pack, she was a co-founder of Squidoo, with none other than marketing guru Seth Godin. Megan was responsible for all the strategy and production vision and growth of that company. By the time she left Squidoo to start Pack in 2014, Squidoo was the 38th most visited website in the world. So she has a wealth of knowledge that she brings to the table and she shares a lot of that knowledge with us today, in today’s episode. Let’s jump right in.

Jay: Hi Megan. Thank you for coming on the show. I’m really excited to have you on as the guest of Asia’s, one of Asia’s first podcast on entrepreneurship, if not the first. So thank you for joining us today.

Megan: Yes. Thanks for having me. It’s going to be fun.

Jay: Yeah. I’m really excited and for our audience out here in Asia. Why don’t you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.

Megan: Sure. I’m a startup person based out of San Francisco. I’m down in San Jose right now. Specifically in a town called Los Gatos. Which is funny because it means the cats and I’m running a dog company. So I always get a laugh out of the fact that here in the US the pets industry is a pretty big deal and I’m actually sure it’s pretty big in Asia too. All over the place I know there’s interesting pet owning statistics raising in China and all over the place.

Yeah, I’m running a company called Pack, it’s packdog.com. But it’s my second startup. The one before this was Squidoo which I had started with a guy named Seth Godin, who is a little bit more popular and famous than I am.

Jay: Yeah, a guy named Seth Godin.

Megan: This one guy named Seth.

Jay: Yeah.

Megan: And before that I was in book publishing. It’s kind of a non-traditional path to doing the whole startup, found, CEO thing. So that will be something we can talk about for sure.

Jay: Yeah. That’s fascinating. How exactly … If we can dive right in. How did you go from being in –

Megan: Yeah, of course.

Jay: -the book publishing, a very traditional sort of industry, to be coming a startup entrepreneur?

Megan: Yeah. I mean book publishing is the art and business of it is pretty ancient. People have been books and getting them published and circulating them for forever. So it’s an extremely old industry that was also a very corporate one, I mean a very, very, very large. I worked for Random House and I worked for Penguin Group. Went there straight out of college. I really loved the idea of shaping. It was sort of like venture capital for ideas, is what I was doing. Is that I was in business books and somebody would say, “Hey, I’ve got this idea for a book,” and we would decide whether we would invest in it or not, right. We would say, “Here’s your advance and here’s how we want to package it and here’s how we want to see it if there’s a good product market fit. What’s the sales strategy going to be like and how do we make sure that the content matches the audience.” It was really a crash course in how do you create products and how do you create a startup.

Now obviously, I didn’t have to worry too much about the PNL for myself there because I was part of a big company. I loved doing that and I got to work with so many CEOs and so many marketers and entrepreneurs. And that’s how I got to know Seth. I worked with Guy Kawasaki and John Battelle and a bunch of big names out here in Silicon Valley.

Then I was going to get my MBA at Stanford. I was ready to go and pack up and move from New York to Palo Alto and Seth said, “You know what, please don’t go into debt to get your MBA instead we’re going to start a company together and you’re going to get your MBA that way, by training on the job.”

Jay: That’s awesome.

Megan: It was a really, really non-traditional but really I’m so grateful for that because that changed everything for me.

Jay: Man.

Megan: Yeah.

Jay: It’s not often when someone, a Seth Godin of this world, offers you a mentorship/hands on program-

Megan: Yeah. I mean-

Jay: -to mold your future.

Megan: Yeah. Yeah. He knew that if you find, I think I was 25, I was like if you find a hungry 25 year old, there’s not a whole lot that their not going to do to make their company fly. You know?

Jay: Yeah.

Megan: There’s no distractions. There’s no kids. There’s no nothing. You’re just going to work your tail off the whole time.

Jay: Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting that your experience there was very similar to, like almost like running a VC where you’re investing ideas. I find that fascinating. That’s a first time that you’ve actually explained that to me in that context, so that interesting. Thank you for that.

But it seems like if you’re ready to move out to Silicon Valley, you probably would have ended up doing something startup related anyways, is that right?

Megan: I think so.

Jay: Was that kind of like an itch that was always, that you wanted to scratch.

Megan: No. So I had not concept of the sort of inside baseball type of meta game of you know. Out here everybody’s talking about startups and the lean startup and their startup methods and their startup schools.

Jay: Right.

Megan: You know, it’s exhaustive conversation about everybody’s gotta be a founder and run a startup. I wasn’t exposed to that because I had spent so much time in New York and this was before really New York had much of a whole tech scene going on. I had always … I don’t know that I was … You know there’s a common question of are entrepreneurs made or born? Can they be self made? I was not coming from a family of people who had necessarily started their own businesses but I definitely came from a family of people who took risks and it’s still a family of people who are intensely curious. And it’s like those two attributes, I think, make you sort of look at the world and go, “Well, this thing doesn’t exist or I wish something would work differently, so I’m going to make that happen.” I guess that’s the root for me is what makes me want to start companies, run companies, or help other people do so. So I think that leads me there but it certainly wasn’t a conscious choice where I said, “God I gotta go raise money and do the-”

Jay: Face the world.

Megan: -typical like routine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that wasn’t where I was coming from.

Jay: Well you bring up an interesting point when you talk about your family because I think, one of the things we explore on this podcast directly is being Asian based and the audience is very Asian. Traditional Asian sort of values are more risk adverse, I would think. It’s getting a little bit better now, but particularly sort of my parents’ generation, [there were 00:08:06] a lot of first generation immigrants in the US and so for them they were “entrepreneurs” they had to be. But it was not by choice it was by survival right? And so, then education and then going into like the corporate system, that was the outs, that was the freedom that they were looking for. So if I told my parents, “Oh, I’m gonna go move out west and go live on Ramen noodles and, and try to build a startup,” they’d be like, “Okay, get out of my house right now. Like everything I’ve worked for you’re throwing away.” I think that the dynamic plays based on sort of the support you get from your family to go out and seek that path.

Now having said that there are, like we said there are some born entrepreneurs, no matter what they don’t care, they’re gonna do whatever it takes to … They’re always just thinking that way, they’re business men or women and they’re gonna be entrepreneurs whether they die trying or what have you.

It’s good that you had the upbringing that’s more open to taking risk and I gather that your parents were supportive and are still supportive of what you do.

Megan: Yeah and it’s interesting too because my dad has always been in commercial real estate. He actually was a physicist and then he decided science was too boring for him. There wasn’t enough room for just joking around. If something failed that would be catastrophic and he just wanted to try stuff and fail, try stuff and fail. So he got into computer sales way back when and then he got into commercial real estate. So for very long time, like 40 years commercial real estate. He was constantly offered a salaried position where it’s like, “Hey, come and join Christian Wakefield,” or whatever the company may be, “we’ll pay you a salary but that means that you’re going to leave behind whatever commission you could make off of a big sale.” Cause he’s doing the huge buildings in San Diego and in San Francisco and all over the place. He always said, “No, I don’t want to ever be a salaried type of guy because if I sell a building, even if it takes seven years for that sale to happen, I get a commission that’s way larger than any salary’s ever going to be.”

So I grew you very aware of, you know, there’d be five, six, seven years where he made zero dollars and then there’s a whole lot of stress in the family. Then one deal would close and it would save our bacon. I was very exposed to risk but he always did it very responsibly, you know, it’s not like it was wild risk.

Jay: Right.

Megan: That made it a little easier for me to say, “You know what, I don’t want to always have the salaried position doing something someone else prescribes for me and then just trying to climb the ladder somewhere.” So it made it easier to say, you know what the only way I’m going to really, really find joy and making something from scratch as well as, hopefully someday, bring in something more than just a stepwise salary function in wealth. It’s gotta be something that you own. It’s gotta be something that you start.

Yeah, they’ve been, both philosophically they’ve been supportive. When I was starting Pack, I called my mom and dad and I said, “Well, you know what, I’m leaving Squidoo and I’m starting this new thing. You guys have been hearing me talk about his for a couple of years now and I’m gonna go do it.” I had a five month old baby girl on my hands, which most people would be like, “Are you out of your mind? Why are you? You know, just take a paycheck for awhile and just sleep.” I don’t know.

My mom was actually the first to write me a check and be an investor. The next day she wrote me a check and incredible.

Jay: That’s awesome.

Megan: Yeah.

Jay: Let’s talk about Squidoo real quickly.

Megan: Yeah.

Jay: I mean, obviously, a very successful, at it’s peak top 40, 30 or 40 visited website in the world.

Megan: Yeah it was.

Jay: And working with Seth Godin must have been amazing. Tell us a little bit about that experience and then why you decided then to subsequently transition out and spinoff and launch Pack.

Megan: Sure. Squidoo was a very interesting time because we started it in 2004 or 5. Pinterest didn’t exist. Twitter barely existed. WordPress was new and Six Apart and TypePad were the new blogging craze was going on. We had this idea that you could easily create these pages that didn’t have to be thematic blogs. Usually you’d have to have a blog on marketing or a blog on food or a blog on baseball and we wanted to be able to just have people making these pages, user generated content on whatever their interests were, without it having all be organized in a blog which is extremely hard to get traffic and get readership. We wanted to be able to lump them all together. It was kind of like about.com or iVilliage or AOL, it was like amalgam of things, that now sounds horribly outdated and there’s a reason that, if you go to Squidoo now it’s was acquired and has been absorbed and you can’t use it anymore. At the time it was a pretty interesting idea.

Jay: Yeah.

Megan: So for me it was funny because coming from being a English major and art history major and working in book publishing, I didn’t know anything about running a technology company. But I knew a lot about how people wrote and what drove them to write and how they wrote well and what sort of design they’d need and what sort of look and feel they’d need what sort of story would resonate with them and how to do the marketing around that. That’s where Seth brought me in. We wound up starting the company together where he was able to give me a lot of room to learn that and make some mistakes and just keep learning. We did it for about seven years.

Jay: Amazing.

Megan: Yeah. Treating writers with respect and giving them room to write what they’re actually passionate about and then network them together was such a simple idea and it worked so well.

Jay: Yes, so it was like definitely … That’s such a fascinating time in sort of Web 1.0. All these things were happening and no one really knew which direction it was going to end up as. You know, now everyone has a blog, anyone can sort of do that and kind of build a following. Back then it was almost like the wild wild west, right, so it must have been just really, really, really interesting.

Megan: And you know, it’s still interesting to me. I still don’t feel like this has been solved properly. So a friend of mine writes a blog about beauty stuff. She likes to go and get soaps that you can put in the bathtub and it’s like a eucalyptus soap and bottle and she’ll review it and she writes these incredibly well written blog posts about it on specifically beauty review blog. But she can’t get any traffic cause you need to play an SCO game still, you’ve have to be extremely put a lot of time into social media to try to drive people to that. It’s a siloed blog and it’s alone. And even if you’re on medium, it takes a long time to rise up and have an article really catch someone’s attention. If this friend of mine could be writing these beauty articles or soap reviews next to 10,000 other people who are all writing beauty articles and soap reviews and pointing to each other, and they’re incentivized to drive traffic to each other, recommend each other. That still doesn’t exist.

That’s what Squidoo was doing. I still think there could be a new version of that. It’s funny how once you have an idea in your head if you don’t see it fully realized, it’s going to keep you up at night still. I haven’t put that one to bed yet.

Jay: That’s really interesting. I was gonna ask you this a little bit later but now that you’ve brought it up. The state of where we are now, it’s like you said there’s still some unresolve there in marketplace because I feel like we’ve kind of gone from where 2005, 2006 to maybe 2010, 2011 was like deep into blogging and people building email lists. That still exists now, but like you said, you could be putting out really good content now and just not get unnoticed because of the flood of content out there is just overwhelming and you’re probably getting passed over for stuff like video and Instagram and Snapchat.

Megan: Right.

Jay: It’s kind of, is it morphing do you think? If you’re just a blogger, that’s your medium so to speak that you want to communicate in, it is basically like, “Okay, you need to iterate now. You need to adapt. You need to start doing video and mobile and blah, blah blah.” What’s the Squidoo 2.0 where, do they still have a chance? Let’s just say you’re just a writer and that’s not your personality, you just like to sit and write, you know?

Megan: Right, yeah. It’s sort of the same template of a question that is attacking the book industry. Where it’s, “Is someone going to sit down and read 288 pages of something.” Most people can’t get past the first chapter or that’s where they stop. So certainly short form is taking the day right now. I listen to audio books all the time because I don’t make time to sit down and read books, as much as I should, or would, or could. I still have this very romantic belief that people have things to say and the written word is never going to go away. Okay, make, get to the point faster maybe, or you better be lyrical and beautiful and readable if you’re going to take longer. It’s more about just really picking whatever your medium’s going to be and just sticking with it. Right, like-

Jay: Yeah. There’s something to be said after that.

Megan: -people who just stick with it. Yeah. Yeah, sure adapt and try new stuff, add video in but if you’re constantly hopping from like, “Now I’m on Snapchat. Now I’m on Periscope. Now I’m here. Now I’m there. Now I’m hosting a Twitter Q&A.” That’s something that I have admired about Seth always, is that God, that guy writes one blog post everyday and has done so for, I don’t even know 15 years, and doesn’t miss a day. There’s a reason, first of all he’s brilliant but it’s also just the consistency what he’s done and he never stops.

Jay: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. So it will be interesting to see. We’ll watch from the sidelines here and hopefully or maybe be involved in it and see how this all plays out.

So from there to Pack. Tell us about that transition.

Megan: Right, right. So that was more about personally growth, which sounds really touchy feely but it was … From just a pure founder point of view, I was ready to … There were new challenges to learn, you know? If you are telling the same story about the same product and it’s just about adding another zero, and another zero, and another zero, that’s a fun problem to have and a fun game to play but I wanted to build something from scratch all over again. I had never done things like, I’d assembled teams before but I had never raised money before. I wanted to see what that would be like. Squidoo was profitable after the first year. We never need to raise any money. I wanted to see if I could have a company that I thought I could, that would integrate into a rapidly growing industry, which is the pets industry. That was a whole new thing for me to learn how to do the high price business development there and much bigger partnerships than we’re doing at Squidoo.

I was interested in the personal challenge of growing into that. From the products perspective, it was just me as a rabid, I guess rabid’s not a good word, a rabid dog. My dog’s not rabid an enthusiastic dog owner.

Jay: That’s really funny.

Megan: A rabidly enthusiastic dog owner who, you know you and I have talked so much about it but it’s like I really looked at all the services and products and things that were coming down the pipeline for pet owners, and dog owners specifically, and realizing that no one was actually taking the time to give the dog owners a place where they could organize and hopefully kind of consolidate all the things that were coming their way and make their life a little bit easier. I was interested both in the opportunity to create the product and the opportunity to grow myself. Sometimes you gotta jump in the deep end.

Jay: Yeah. No, that takes a lot of courage.

Megan: In order to get somewhere.

Jay: You definitely jumped in the deep end and leveled up yourself as a start founder and entrepreneur.

Megan: Yeah, luckily Pack is also leveling up. It’s going great. It’s a lot of hard work but it continues to be a completely rewarding endeavor.

Jay: Yeah.

Megan: On so many levels.

Jay: I’m sure, I’m sure. So that’s really interesting. Congrats now on Pack. You’ve leveled up yourself.

Megan: Thanks.

Jay: You’re a proper start up owner and entrepreneur. I got asked this question the other day, because I do a little bit of mentoring here in Hong Kong, and she has her baby, her Pack, she wants to develop an app or something. It’s her baby and she was asking me how do I find a co-founder. She’s like, “I’m a non-technical founder. I have the idea, it’s my baby but how do I find a good co-founder?” I couldn’t answer because I’ve never been a startup founder. I’ve just viewed things from a funding side, and I said, “You have to find one very carefully, but I’m sorry I don’t have any experience.”

Megan: Right.

Jay: But I figured I’d ask you because you do have experience. So what would you tell this young aspiring founder?

Megan: Oh, so, first of all so, that’s such a common questions. I’m not degrading the question at all. I’m having a lot of empathy for it because there’s so many people that are extremely bright and they can bring the business sense to things, they can bring product or design but they don’t know how to actually create the product, right? But they actually do. The best advice I can actually give is that, if there’s nothing that you can test or prove without a line of code, then you’re not being creative enough about … You’ve got to come up with a weather balloon and if you come up with a weather balloon … So for example, for Pack, I didn’t have a team yet, it was just me, right? Now I have a lot people that if I were able to get funding first and I could’ve gone to them with a big paycheck and said, “Here, I’d like to hire you.” That’s very different from finding a co-founder.

Jay: Right.

Megan: So what I did was, I had been working on the idea for awhile, I just set up a mail chip account and I created a bunch of breed newsletters, breed specific newsletters. So like the Pug Pack Newsletter and the Rhodesian Ridgeback Newsletter and the Vizsla Newsletter. I started telling people and emailing people and going to meetups and really just kind of trying to do email, get email signups for those breed newsletters. Now you don’t need anybody technical for that. You can figure out mail chip yourself and go to meetups and email anybody. So I got for each one of those I got like 5,000 people for each one of these to sign up to these newsletters.

I looked at it for a couple of months and it’d just be an hour a day at it but with that in hand, if you can say, “Look, I don’t have a team yet. I don’t have a dollar of investment but I’ve already got 15,000 people signed up to these newsletters, as the case may be, that’s some sort of proof that you’re not necessarily showing traction for a product but you’re showing you got some determined number of people who are interested in what you’re going to do. That’s something somebody will say, “Well I know understand that I can build for an audience and that I’m going to trust you can build the audience while I’m building the thing.”

Jay: Yeah, it’s so powerful to have that audience. People underestimate actually how much that’s actually worth.

Megan: Right. Right. If you want to make an app for raising chickens in the backyard or something. It’s like okay, it’s not hard to imagine to go to a couple of conferences for livestock or you talk to people, you start to send out questions and say, “Hey, can I interview you,” ask three questions about this. You can start a blog about it. There’s a lot of soft tissue things that are not developer, coding related that you can do to kind of see if there’s anyone really even willing to talk about it, if it’s interesting. I have so many friends who are engineers who they’re so afraid of making something that no one is going to use. They want to make something that is wildly used. So if you can show them that in advance then it’s way easier to find somebody who would want to team up with you, I think.

Jay: Totally, totally. I think one of the things that I admire as a startup founder is the way that you’ve kept sort of your team extremely, extremely lean and just really … You’re like a true startup founder and I feel like there is this way in the last five year or maybe a little bit more where after the movie The Social Network came out everyone packed up to the gold rush out west and wanted to be a startup founder and just started trying to get money, VC money, and it just … They went about it the wrong way and people were cutting checks they shouldn’t have been cutting to people that shouldn’t be starting companies. The whole thing became a mess.

But I think when you scale that back and you look at real founders and say simple things like you said just building a small audience, build something that the audience wants as opposed to work it the other way, building something and then finding the audience afterwards. I mean those are just basic things that I think a lot of people, young startup founders, inexperienced founders they kind of skip over and miss that. They want to go straight to their fund raising round and get all the glamor and hype of it, right?

Megan: Yeah. I think so. I missed that part, that wasn’t in my DNA because I’m such a boring person, like I want to work on my products and I want to spend time with my family and my dog, you know. I’m not out there trying to, I don’t know. I’m not looking for a Forbes magazine cover or something like that, I’m not looking. There’s the certain things that keep you awake at night, where you’re like, “Well I’m working on a dog company right now, and while I know all the amazing benefits that come out of that and come out of pet ownership and at the end of the day I know I’m not solving world wide problems. I’m not bringing Internet to underdeveloped nations and I’m not creating the next Tesla and solar energy, so it’s kind of like you have to carve out your own interesting niche and make it really matter to you. But there’s a lot of that self awareness.

Jay: Definitely. Why don’t you just tell our audience, maybe give us the quick blurb on what you’re up to at Pack right now.

Megan: Oh cool. Pack is doing some interesting things where we grew really quickly, in terms of membership, in terms of people and their dogs joining the site and saying, “Hey, I’ve got a corgi and I want to meet all these corgi owners and I’ll design cool stuff for my corgi.” But we made the mistake of not creating a revenue bearing product early enough on. We grew very quickly but we weren’t making any month on month recurring revenue. As you know. We sell occasional sponsorships so that would be pretty big ticket sponsorships so we’d get a little relief and say, “Okay, we can, we can live to fight another couple of months.”

But this was, believe it or not, as much as it’s been a little bit of a nightmare where you’re going, “God, I need to get some revenue on the books,” we had to take this risk because the whole plan has been that if you get enough people on the site, then we can start selling into them. Not in a callous salesy way, but because we so understand who our members are and we talk to them a lot, and we survey them and we know what they are doing and we’re learning from them. We’re learning what kind of dog owners and pet parents they are, we’re actually able to either develop our own things or partner with people to say, “Hey, this is actually a curated thing that we want to offer to the Pack community exclusively or at tremendous value or a tremendous discount,” or something like that.

I’m really excited that there’s a couple of things coming in the next month or two that we’re gonna be able to actually start selling into the community in a way that it’s benefits that they get because they are part of this Pack, that they truly can’t get any where else. If I can prove that out, even if it’s small revenue, if it’s recurring sales that tell me that the customers and the dog owners that we have like the stuff we’re putting in front of them. That’s also that something becomes a much more valuable company.

Jay: Yeah. Back to what you were saying, you already have your, you basically already have your customers. You spent so much time building up these different interest lists so you’ve done a lot of the work ahead of time. Which I think is great.

Megan: Well it’s interesting, I mean that’s why we’ll get like somebody’s running a pet cam. They put tons of money into developing the hardware for this in-home pet cam. I’m just saying that generically. I forget what the company is called. But they just reached out to us, “Hey, we’ve got this thing. We’d love to be able to tell your community about it.” Cause they don’t have any sort of direct access to those people on their own so it’s this real interesting thing where we’ve built up such a powerful group of pet owners that okay now is the time when there’s a lot of other people who want to start reaching that and how do we decide how to do that with a lot of integrity and know what our customers, members want. It’s a good problem to have.

Jay: Yeah, yeah. Awesome. So Megan, I want to look to wrap up. I’m super mindful and respectful of time here. I just have two last questions for you. The first one is, what is the once piece of advice that you can give to our young aspiring entrepreneurs that perhaps want to start a company in the coming year. What one piece of advice would you give them?

Megan: Oh man. What piece of advice do you give them? I want to learn from you. No really, what do you say?

Jay: Well, you know, to be honest, what I usually say is you have too … Look, I’m a big fan of Gary Vaynerchuk and he was on the show, I had a conversation with him a couple of weeks back and his most important piece of advice is also the one that I think is actually I agree with, and it’s self awareness. It’s basically, you can’t … As much as I would love to be Lebron James, I have to realize that I’m not going to be Lebron James and I’m not going to be the next Mark Zuckerberg or whatever. You gotta just understand that, and I think a lot of young kids come out with this fantasy or you know, they have these ideals that they you know. It’s good to have big hopes and dreams you know, but I think you have to be real as well. You don’t have to just aim for the stars, you can start small and you can build and build and still be very successful in a startup founder. That’s what I would say. I kind of cheated. Cause I-

Megan: I’m coming to you for advice way more often Jay. That’s good. That’s good. I would absolutely second that. I’m trying to think of … I’m playing the game in my head what I would have told myself 10 years ago if I could say, “Oh hey Megan, here’s what you should do.” It’s, I think it’s gotta be about …

So I’ve been working a little bit of a side project with a guy name Mark Rampolla who founded Zico Coconut Water. I don’t know if you’d ever had that. He sold it to Coca-Cola a couple of years ago and he’s now doing investing via power plant [ventures 00:33:53] where they invest in new food technology in feeding the world in humane, sustainable new ways. He’s just this really good guy doing a couple of little projects. What I’ve taken away from him, he just recently wrote a book, that I’ve internalized as my own recently is that when he was ready to Zico Coconut, the new company, he had been in big corporate and was kind of like, “I’ve gotta have something bigger to contribute.” He and his wife went through this really interesting exercise and he’s like, “Hey, I can solve the trucking industry,” and she’s like, “Yeah, do you really want to do that? Is that personally passionate and interesting for you?” He’d say, “I can do this. I can do that.” She was always this sounding board that would go back to him and say, “But that’s not going to bring you any sort of joy and it doesn’t really solve a real problem in the world.”

The thing I started thinking about more it’s about asking the question, not just like how much money can I make for myself from this, but what good can I do for other people from this. ‘Cause if you can do good for other people then the money problem is gonna probably solve itself if you have thousands or tens of thousands or millions of people doing better, living better lives, whatever the metric is because of the thing that you created.

Jay: Yeah, that’s so true.

Megan: That’s very different from just making an app where you’re like, “Yeah, I can slap a $4.00 price tag on this and sell a 100,000 of them and have a nice little life style company.”

Jay: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That’s great advice actually. If you want to become a billionaire, help a billion people or something like that. I can’t remember which [inaudible 00:35:36] said that but it’s a very famous quote as well.

Last question for you, where can people find you or follow you and get updated on what the exciting stuff you’re doing at Pack.

Megan: Believe it or not, they can just write me an email. I’m such a hermit these days and I’m so focused on Pack, that it’s really like, I’m not on Twitter. I’m not really posting a lot of stuff. I’m not talking about myself that much. I’m just so heads down doing this. But I’m-

Jay: That’s awesome.

Megan: -extremely quick on email so if anybody wants to ask a question or ask for advice, you can write me at megan@packdog.com and I would love to talk.

Jay: Wow guys, that is … This is a rarity because usually startup founders are so busy they’ll never answer your emails.

Megan: I’m not saying I’m gonna be smart.

Jay: You guys take this opportunity.

Megan: I’m not going to be a smart [inaudible 00:36:27].

Jay: Megan is offering free advice if you write to her at her email address.

Megan: That’s right.

Jay: Definitely hit her up.

Megan: That’s right.

Jay: Thank you so much for being on. I had a great time talking with you. I really appreciate having you on the podcast. Thanks for all the advice and best of luck with Pack.

Megan: Thank you. I always have fun talking to you.

Jay: All right. Take care Megan.